Even the women don't support women.

[HamletsSister]

MiL who is 84, and lovely, came to stay bringing gifts for the 4 of us. Identical chocolates for all. And a diary each.

DD and I both got one with flowers on it. DH and DS both got diaries from a particular university.

DH went there so no problem with that.
DS was offered a place but has chosen to go elsewhere.
I have qualifications from 3 universities (not this one)
DD would love to go there but is only 15.

We sat (after MiL and DH had left) and discussed it.

It may seem to be a small thing but a girl getting a pink flowery diary like her Mum while the males get Uni diaries suggesting high achievement and academia both annoy me.

I don't have a problem with MiL - she is old and would much prefer the flowery one herself so, in her mind, has given us something lovely.

But, DD and I were talking and if you multiply this kind of gift / attitude over her life then it must make it harder to believe she can be as good, or better, than her brother and males.

Both DH and DS were fairly horrified and don't want the diaries anyway.

Anyone else get this kind of drip drip approach but from women as well as men?

Women are no more immune, in general, than men to the effects of the patriarchy.

She has been brought up as a handmaiden to the patriarchy unfortunately. Happens a lot, and is so normalised that if you challenge it, they are either bewildered or hostile IME.

I am interested in other examples, perhaps within families as I had never really noticed it before. I grew up with 3 sisters so there was no brother / sister comparison and went to an all girls' school.

We did have a governor who expressed surprise that any of the girls at the school had passed Maths.

I remember from a young age having to play quietly because my brother was studying for exams to get into uni.
I remember asking if I would have to study so hard and my mum told me no as I would marry a nice rich man
That was around 1970.

In Gillian Clarke's 'letter from a far country' I first felt the hit of how subtle yet clearly The perceptions of male/female can just be embedded without immediate realisation. When she pours out all man's work VS the time honoured female role and questions 'where are my works' (something similar, it's been 20yrs since reading that poem but I still think on it and whether my own 'works' will have altered or whether I put my love into the folding of the bedsheets as mam and mamgu did before me because men won't do the job or simply because I simply do it out of love...I'm thinking love as I really wouldn't do it if I didn't love the men in my life! I can be utterly lazy to the point of playing dead if I hate ppl lol)

I noticed this with birthday cards as a small example - DSs cards often depict their interests which are activities- sports, gaming, science, sailing, even listening to music cards, etc.

DDs cards are often about "pretty" but totally frivolous things rather than pursuits or activities - princesses, cupcakes (wtf?), unicorns, cakes, party girls, shoes, clothes - all about being attractive or special rather than doing anything.

Not universally true but certainly more often than not.

O and the person who made me into a feminist...an old Welsh miner...yep...not my mother...but all the Welsh women in my family were heads of the household and the men did as they were told. But it was my father who instilled in me to never rely on a man and educate myself and I could achieve whatever I dreamt as long as I worked hard

MIL watched me put together an Ikea cabinet once, which I then needed to attach to the wall, so had to borrow her son from his tea making duties. The next day she was watching CBeebies with our toddler (girl) and someone was building something and I overheard 'look, she's using instructions, just like daddy was doing yesterday'.

I did laugh, but I find the wider picture quite depressing. PIL genuinely believe that men and women have different brains, and women are just naturally able to keep track of how much milk is left, information that literally falls out of men's brains.

I think a good example of this is tourist tat. Boys get exciting knick-knacks that flash or light up. Girls can be fobbed off with sedentary trinkets.

I've noticed a tendency for boy children to be given toys as gifts while girls are given clothes. This happens from a young age in DH's extended family. The message is that boys need to play and learn while girls just need to look pretty.

all the Welsh women in my family were heads of the household and the men did as they were told.

I also grew up in a Welsh mining village - same there too. I thought it was the same everywhere.

I have a friend who's a teacher. Very intelligent woman capable of critical thinking and deconstructing arguments. Also sadly one of the most sexist people I've ever met, which she openly admits. She's a real extrovert who will talk to anyone and if she ever sees a man doing anything with his own children, she'll congratulate him - look at you, well done daddy, the modern man (patronising as well!) - like its a big accomplishment cos he's a bloke. She also still thinks that women who sleep around are worse than men who do the same. She shouldn't be allowed near young influential minds.

I would never give clothes as a gift to a child. Other than my own.
Years ago, I wanted to buy a baby present for a friends PFB. M&S is my go to for presents (this wasn't a book token occasion), and I was overwhelmed by the gorgeous little dresses. Then I thought, it's not my baby and it's not my place to chose what it should wear. I think I gave a gift card.

I get cross as gift guides in newspapers and magazines. Gifts for him - tool sets and useful things. Gifts for her - scented candles, smellies.

Gifted children. Who gave them?

Basketofdeplorables I had very similar from MIL and thought I was being oversensitive so glad it's not me!!!! We sent pics over course of week gutting and redoing bathroom to husbands mum, including pics of me doing the tiling. At the end she sent message saying, 'well done, (son's name), you must be exhausted'.... maybe she thought I just posed for the photo and had been making tea all week 😂 so glad it's not just me but I find myself repeating 'generational thing' over and over when these things happen to stay sane!!

This is interesting because i doubt I would have even noticed.

Scottish miners here, maybe it's pit thing. Women in my family are at least equal partners and definitely don't have male and female jobs. It does often come as a surprise when a friend is waiting for DH to hang a picture etc.

The clothes thing drives me potty. My ds likes to look nice (don't know where he gets it) so the endless sludge coloured joggers and branded tshirts are miserable. He'd love 5 or 6 pairs of shoes to choose from but there isn't that much choice.

The problem is that you don't notice when it's one or two. And besides it's kind of people to buy gifts so you feel slightly mean if you do notice.

But when everyone does it it builds up to convey a very real message.

But you mustn't complain else you'll look like a harridan.

Ah the women in my family are all internalised misogynists and frustratingly they all work with children so they're passing on the messages. I very nearly strangled DSis when she said to our nephew "X if you don't run faster you'll have to play with the girls".

It's the difficulty of deciding should you pick your battles and let the small things slide or address everything and then get ignored? I'm still not sure which is better but I get routinely told off for overthinking anyway.

I think I might reply with "it's better than under thinking" if I was unfairly accused of over thinking! To me, comments like that one about your nephew are really damaging and I don't think I could manage not to challenge them.

Many, many years who when I was about 10 my dad would not let my mum buy me a typewriter! His daughter was not going to be a secretary he wanted better for me.

Not sure who was being more sexist. I was the first girl in the family to go to university though.

The most sexist person I've ever met was my late grandmother. In shops, if she has serious business she would insist on speaking to a man. She also bought my brother bigger Easter eggs because he was the boy.

Sexism totally validated her life choices.

The raging double moral standard is also heavily promoted by women. It serves them personally to categorise themselves above other women. It's absolutely everywhere.

Don't worry Assassinated I made a very firm (and rage filled) point about that because I was absolutely outraged, but I don't know whether it's worth just making the point on the real clangers like that in the hopes of being more effective, or whether it's worth making a point with the smaller issues too? I do like your response though - will be saving that for future use.

I'm glad it's not just me howdo!

The Irish side of my family is all run by strong women who are very much in charge. The only men they listen to are priests.

I was brought up by a single mum so just thought all adults did everything, and got a shock at university when a flat mate had never changed a lightbulb.

But it was my father who instilled in me to never rely on a man and educate myself and I could achieve whatever I dreamt as long as I worked hard

I think sometimes it is easier for men to oppose sexism, because they aren't subjected to it.

Women have to live with the fact that lots of people they love and also financially depend on are sexist towards them. If they acknowledged that sexism is a horrible, horrible thing to do to a girl ... then that'd cause them lots of conflicted feelings about their own parents, friends, husbands. So they tell themselves that it must be okay, otherwise their loved ones wouldn't do it! (Somewhat the same pattern as with people who were spanked as children and say that it "didn't harm them" while openly admitting they are also violent towards their own children)

Men only have to justify misogyny if they themselves choose to perpetrate it.

Otherwise, they are quite free to oppose it without it causing them any cognitive dissonance.

VestalVirgin what an insightful post; I'd never thought of it like that! Thank you.