It's My Baby Too - Women are offered support and counselling through the process - but do we do enough to help the many men affected by abortion?

[alpacasandwich]

Has anyone listened to this episode of Seriously on Radio 4?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p056c6p8

I have mixed feelings about it. Throughout, the person narrating talked to men in this manner - "when you had your termination". Well, he didn't have a termination, the woman did.

They spoke to a feminist but I did not feel she put her point very eloquently and she was attacked by the person narrating.

Although I can see an argument for men having counselling if they are adversely affected by abortion, I disagree that they need to have counselling at e.g. Marie Stopes. I think the focus should be on the person who is going through it.

There is also a lot of talk of men supporting their partners and being strong, but surely women support men through things and are strong for them as well? There is emotional give and take in a relationship.

Obviously, though, male mental health is a problem and men do not express their emotions which can lead to problems later on.

At the end of the programme, the narrator commented that she hoped it didn't take 50 more years for men to be supported, too. This is because it's been 50 years since abortion was legalised. I thought this was a pretty crass comparison, really, given the history of illegal abortions and what women have gone through.

I was wondering if anyone else had any opinions on this.

I haven't listened to the episode sorry.

I do agree counselling should be available to men whose partner has had an abortion if they want it.

Don't agree it's the role of Marie Stopes. If blokes want support they can set it up, sure plenty of women would help.

I agree with batteries. Why do the charities and services for women always have to cater for men too? They aren't the patient here - the abortion charities provide excellent support for the patients, which is women.

I would rather Marie Stopes focused on their patients and their patients' issues (such as campaigning for legal abortion in NI), while men's support groups got on with focusing on men's issues.

The NHS already offers counselling and anyone can request a referral.

And I find it pretty offensive that a man would refer to it as 'his termination' when he cannot possibly have been the patient.

Your partner undergoing a procedure doe not make you the patient yourself. Do men go through labour and delivery too?

I see this in the same way as counselling for males who have been raped. Instead of moaning that there is no support from charities set up by women for women they should set up their own. I think a lot of the attitude about this is it is women's jobs to look after men, ie a sexist attitude.

Marie Stopes or similar should not be spending their money on this, imo. No problems with men setting up their own charities if they feel they need them.

I heard it but was falling asleep off and on. I do not think that money should be spent supporting men through abortions when women already have difficulty getting support and they need it far more.

I was very very annoyed at the presenter - they were extremely biased and railroaded the woman who was speaking.

I thought the programme was awful to be honest. I am sure there are issues to be discussed around this subject but they handled it really poorly.

I'd love to know who the 'we' is in "but do we do enough to help the many men affected by abortion?".

I don't think anybody has actively stop men organising self help groups or lobbing the NHS for resources, have they?

I'd love to know who the 'we' is in "but do we do enough to help the many men affected by abortion?".

Indeed. I expect it means women. As usual women are expected to pool the scant resources in place for services to help women and girls to cater for men.

' Do men go through labour and delivery too?'

Well there are the men who declare 'we are pregnant', and I remember sharing an antenatal room with a women whose husband kept saying 'we' can manage without pain relief when she was asking pethidine, so, yes, I would guess some men do think they go through the pregnancy and delivery too.

Going back to the OP, if men want counselling they can arrange it for themselves, they should expect to use limited resources which have been allocated for the care of women.

Shouldn't expect

Pretty much the same as everyone else on the thread - I wholeheartedly agree that men should be able to access support if their partner or whomever is carrying their child chooses a termination.

However of course this shouldn't come out of resources dedicated to women going through abortions as their experience is different and obviously a lot more difficult to deal with, given the fact that it is happening to her body.

I wonder if the solution is rather than accusing women of monopolising support for abortion (), have more visibility for support. So for example if it is already the case that men can ask for counselling from the NHS, how visible is this? Are their advice leaflets and signposting information for young men in sexual health clinics for young people as there are for young women? Organisations like Marie Stopes should not be pressured into widening their support network to men, given the fragile situations these women may find themselves in.

Not sure why men would need an abortion-specific counselling service - most of the reasons women need specific counselling on this do not apply to them. E.g. weighing up different considerations in making decision - not man's decision. Stigma - not for men. Physical experience, potential physical aftereffects - not for men. Seems to me like the main issue for men would be around acceptance of a decision they weren't in control of, letting go of a fantasy future, etc. Which are absolutely valid reasons to go to counselling but actually don't have much to do with abortion.

It's not "their baby too" immediately after conception, and that line of thinking is worrying. Saying that abortion affects men as much as women implies they should have an equal say in the decision. I think it's patently untrue that they are equally affected, and we should not be afraid to push that back.

expotition I think they are referring to support after an abortion - coming to terms with it etc?

I agree that we need to be careful referring to the "baby too" thing - especially given that a good proportion of women needing an abortion will likely be in vulnerable circumstances anyway. So I do think it would be inappropriate to invite men into a setting where women are going to discuss options and go through with an abortion.

However if men are struggling to cope with that decision there should be avenues for their support as well - but I really reckon this can be done in plenty of settings outside of actual organisations who offer abortion services to women. Unfortunately I didn't actually hear the show though! So am not sure exactly what angle they were tackling it from.

What the fuck - do men also need counselling after wanking?
Or just when their sperm happened to meet an egg, after it has fucking left their body?

I could see, if I try very, very hard, a need for support groups for men whose partner had to abort a planned and wanted pregnancy because something went wrong. They should talk to other men about their psychological problems and not make the woman who had the actual abortion comfort them in addition to what she has to cope with.

But unwanted pregnancies? Please. Men don't even know about half of those!

I don't know Vestal, honestly I'm not a man so I don't think I'm in a position to say how it affects them.

I do think that if you are in a relationship with someone, and an unplanned pregnancy occurs, and the woman on her own or as a couple decides that an abortion is the right thing to do, I still imagine this can be hard on both of them.

If men are in a position to have a conversation about feeling they don't have enough support for them, then I personally feel they should be allowed to express that. But hey it's just my opinion and I've never had an abortion or a penis!

What an awful, biased program.

The women get to talk to a nurse. And the men just sit in the waiting room.
Yes, because of coerced abortion. Staff want to make sure its the woman's choice, and she is not acting under pressure. How can someone making a program about abortion not know this or think its worth mentioning?

Its another reason why men are not always told. That and the fact they are not always available.

If men want counselling why dont they arrange it?

Agree DJ,

I haven't been able to listen but from the sounds of the comments it seems the woman was very pro male support in the same situation and setting as women currently receive it - I'm very surprised a woman could not see the multitude of problems that would arise if men were expected or encouraged to be involved in the decision or support surrounding it too. I don't have any statistics but surely it's quite common sense to assume that many women who face getting an abortion will be in quite vulnerable circumstances? If it is a woman's choice to abort, then it should be only her who receives information and support offered by abortion clinics. It's quite worrying to think that some people, especially other women, would advocate that this shouldn't be the case.

I haven't listened to the program but I know someone whose partner had an abortion against his will. I. e. he wanted to keep the baby but she decided to terminate.
It still affects him greatly to this day so I guess in some cases yes, counseling should be available for men too.

I see this in the same way as counselling for males who have been raped. Instead of moaning that there is no support from charities set up by women for women they should set up their own. I think a lot of the attitude about this is it is women's jobs to look after men, ie a sexist attitude.

Quite. When in actual fact, the counselling services for women who've been raped are insufficient (I presume due to lack of funding). As a woman who was the victim of such an abhorrent attack earlier this year noted upon the attacker's conviction She believed it was 'unjust' she was forced onto a waiting list for counselling to help her come to terms with the ordeal while Pearton was offered the service behind bars. I don't imagine those behind this programme will be highlighting or getting too upset about that, though.

If men want counselling why dont they arrange it?

Yes. They never seem to arrange anything at all, do they?

Always just demanding that the services set up by women for women should also cater to them. (Or women demanding that other women should cater to men.)

I can't imagine it's a pleasant experience all round, but if I was in that position and felt I needed to talk about it I imagine a trip to the GP and expressing a desire for some therapy would be the first port of call. I'm not entirely sure going to an organisation specifically setup to help women would be the right fit anyway.

I guess with all the social reinforcement that men get to struggle through mental health issues alone and the constant message we need to project strength at all times, encouragement to seek psychological help when needed is a good thing.

Considering how it is through attempting to control women's reproduction we have landed in this societal mess in the first place it would probably be worth a pass at understanding what feelings arise in situations such as this with a view to working through them and accepting them.

Again it's probably best if women stay out of it as it's hardly a position any woman is going to find herself in, our respective frames of reference are going to be different thanks to biology.

I see this in the same way as counselling for males who have been raped

I don't. I do think that it's possible that a different style of counselling might work better for men who've been raped, that they may prefer a male counsellor for instance, and women may not feel comfortable themselves with having men in their therapy groups so it's probably not be appropriate or helpful for rape victims to be mixed - but, both men and women are raped by men, so it is something that we can both go through - I don't think leaving men out in the cold in that particular case is the right thing to do.

On the counselling for men who's partners have abortions - I do agree with all here.

It also brings to mind a comment I read somewhere (maybe here) around how we think about abortion. That we shouldn't consider it this big decision - this profoundly life-changing thing, because it isn't. It's keeping the status quo. The profoundly life-changing decision is to choose not to have the abortion.

I can see it must be upsetting to be confronted with the reality that you can only have children if someone else consents to use their body to create them.

Certainly I went through early life pretty blase about probably having kids someday and not appreciating the reality of it. If my first experience of seriously considering children had been for someone else to shut it down and say no I don't consent and my say trumps yours I can see that would be upsetting.

But counselling for that is about accepting your biology and lack of uterus, respecting other people's autonomy, exploring the limits of your control over your own life. I would have thought (?). It's quite...intangible I guess? Don't know, can't think of an appropriate word. It doesn't have the immediacy of oh shit I'm pregnant and I don't want to be and make it stop now please.

The two sets of counselling would be exploring completely different angles. For the women, accepting her control and decision making and letting go of expectations, fear and guilt. For the men, accepting his lack of control and secondary role in decision making and letting go of frustrations. I don't know why you'd assume a specialist counsellor in the first circumstances would be able to assist with the second set.