It's My Baby Too - Women are offered support and counselling through the process - but do we do enough to help the many men affected by abortion?

[alpacasandwich]

Has anyone listened to this episode of Seriously on Radio 4?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p056c6p8

I have mixed feelings about it. Throughout, the person narrating talked to men in this manner - "when you had your termination". Well, he didn't have a termination, the woman did.

They spoke to a feminist but I did not feel she put her point very eloquently and she was attacked by the person narrating.

Although I can see an argument for men having counselling if they are adversely affected by abortion, I disagree that they need to have counselling at e.g. Marie Stopes. I think the focus should be on the person who is going through it.

There is also a lot of talk of men supporting their partners and being strong, but surely women support men through things and are strong for them as well? There is emotional give and take in a relationship.

Obviously, though, male mental health is a problem and men do not express their emotions which can lead to problems later on.

At the end of the programme, the narrator commented that she hoped it didn't take 50 more years for men to be supported, too. This is because it's been 50 years since abortion was legalised. I thought this was a pretty crass comparison, really, given the history of illegal abortions and what women have gone through.

I was wondering if anyone else had any opinions on this.

Also men would presumably only need counselling if they didn't want their partner to have an abortion.

Marie Stopes by their nature provide counselling to women who do want abortions.

There's a fundamental conflict there.

There's nothing stopping men setting up these services and networks, as women themselves have had to do.

I didn't mean the counselling for abortion and rape would be the same. I meant that I read a news article slagging off women because they wouldn't let male rape victims access their services. This is the same, women should give up their resourses rather than men making an effort to start their own.

I think expotition upthread has put her finger on what it is that makes me uncomfortable - the sense that this is the thin end of the wedge. I too would fear a move from "men get psychologically traumatised by this situation" to "men should have equal say on whether it goes ahead or not".

That and Batteries point about conflict of interest - Marie Stopes counselling is for women who do want to have an abortion or at least are undecided, these services would be for men who didn't want their partner to have an abortion.

Batteriesallgone and M0stlyBowlingHedgehog

Excellent posts.

I can see it must be upsetting to be confronted with the reality that you can only have children if someone else consents to use their body to create them.

Consents.

Yet again, this is a situation where men are admirably placed to sort this thing out for themselves.

I'm very uncomfortable with the use of the word baby to be honest - it's the same emotional language that is used by the anti-abortion lobby. The truth is that for the vast majority of women who have an abortion, the foetus is nowhere near being a baby and would be entirely unable to function outside the womb.

And that's entirely aside from the points made by PPs that, yet again, men are expecting women to create, fund and manage the services that they want. They're the ones that get paid more - surely they can fund some male only services out of the pay gap?

I can think of many instances where men might benefit from counselling after their partner has a termination. But this isn't something that should be provided by reducing women's services, so the onus is on those who want them to set them up and find the funding for them.

I agree with all that you've all said in principle on this issue (not listened to the programme myself but it sounds like it has its own axe to grind on this issue.)

I'll just leave the radio 4 feedback link here in case you want to let them know what you thought about the editorial balance they have chosen to strike with this. ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006slnx/contact

Men can have counselling at Marie Stopes for a fee.

"I can see it must be upsetting to be confronted with the reality that you can only have children if someone else consents to use their body to create them."

Cry me a river. Seriously.

Is it really beyond your imaginations that there will be situations where a pregnancy is terminated and the father cares and is affected too?

There is no need for counselling to come out of abortion services funding but to flippantly dismiss the potential need for it in the way you have done is just nasty.

Selfishly and childishly I'd like any service for men to be as I experienced when seeking an abortion last year:

GP refused to refer me on religious grounds
Eventually handed a scribbled note for a number to call by another doctor
Struggled to find any clinics near me (England)
Once found clinic couldn't offer the type of abortion I wanted
Lots of phone calls later
Found somewhere and thankfully they were brilliant, but the process for getting there was very stressful and shaming

I somehow doubt however that a service for men would operate in this way

This isn't a popular view alot of the time but it's not a baby it's a pregnancy, which happens only to women, so no membership don't need counciling through abortion services.

If there was a particular reason like a couple made a descion together to have a late abortion of a much wanted pregnancy because of dusability then surely gp should be respossible for arranging council ing if the man needs some. Or the man can arrange it privately.

I've heard the opinion that if a woman doesn't abort when the man wants her too, then it's only fair he should be released from all responsibility. This is just an extension of the same logic, that a woman's pregnant body isn't exclusively hers alone, and only she knows how she feels about it.

However, having watch friends go through a late stage abortion of a much wanted baby on medical grounds, I do think he should have had some support too. Obviously she was the priority, but he was left supporting her with nowhere to turn because he knew it was far worse for her. However that doesn't need to be funded by women's charities. And until we can adequately provide for pnd I don't believe it should be a huge priority for the nhs, most situations aren't like my friends.

Sorry that's a red line for me, any woman's body is exclusively hers, and hers alone. To argue otherwise is to invite disaster.

If you wish you can make the case that men can choose to walk away in case of accidental pregnancy, but don't do it from a foundation of putting women in a subhuman moral category who lose autonomy upon getting pregnant.

I'm with you re: men accessing support. However the more I meditate on the subject I am convinced it is part of a wider problem of men being socialised to access help and support when they need it.

Sorry last bit should be "socialised to not access help and support.

There's a men's trauma centre in my city. Runs excellent groups and provides counselling as well. They work with suicidal men, men with PTSD, addiction, all sorts of important issues. If a man needed counselling following a termination, they could get it there. The centre gets funding from government and donations.

Since men earn more typically and have more power, why aren't there services like this everywhere? And the staff I've met are all women BTW, which I found interesting...

I did not hear/see the programme.

But I can understand the potential distress of a man whose partner terminates a pregnancy when he wanted the child. Men are allowed to have feelings too.

Men are allowed to have feelings too.

Yes, but they will have to live with being judged if their feelings stem from entitlement and lack of respect for women.

A man who would be heartbroken if his sperm was aborted out of a woman's body should not stick his dick into a woman who does not want a baby, simple as that.

The only time I would not judge a man for being upset about an abortion is when the abortion was medically necessary and a baby was planned.

A normal human being's reaction to learning that something happened to someone else's body that they did not want to happen, is empathy.

No one in their right mind would say "I hope you don't get medication for your tubercolosis, it gives you such a beautiful pale look".

But with unwanted pregnancy, apparently that's okay. "Oh, yes, great, you absolutely must go through the massively painful and dangerous process of giving birth! Even though you don't want to, which you have told me before! I would be very, very disappointed and need counselling if you did not risk your health and life in this way."

nicely put, vestal.

No-one is saying that men aren't allowed feelings. We're just questioning how much weight thinly stretched services ought to be allocating to services catering to those feelings. And also pushing back on the slippery notion that men are anything like as invested in a pregnancy as the pregnant woman is.

Isn't there a male pill? I can't think of many women who would automatically trust a man, but if it's available and they don't want to impregnate a woman, there's no excuse.

There is a new sort of injection that block the relevant pipes and gives a long period of time where a man won't be producing any children. They have done trials not sure it's available on the NHS yet.

They also made a pill that was deemed to produce side effects on a similar scale to women's pills, but the side effects were considered too much and I don't think are being made available.

Also I can see how a man could feel sad in these circumstances, and you can't just wish them away. Personally I still feel a GP's visit and an appointment with a therapist is the way to go here.

I don't think it's worth trying to make objective comparisons between people who need counselling. What one person can shrug off can devastate another. The important thing is to get people who are struggling (for whatever reason) the help they need.

I am sure there would be many men who would benefit from counselling following a termination, whether they were part of that decision or not. I'm sure there are plenty of men who would benefit from counselling followering a partner having a miscarriage. But surely this is available through a GP.

I'm aware that counselling is not easy to access, but the nature of abortion means there is the pressure of time, whereas any feelings around the abortion after the event are not pressured in that way. Most abortion services aren't about feelings one has in relation to previously having an abortion, although possibly some charities offer this. However, of all my friends who have accessed abortion services, none have had counselling after the event.

I am fully behind resources to improve men's mental and physical health, and also services for people who support loved ones through a difficult event and have no one to lean on - supporting a partner through an abortion or miscarriage could be like supporting them through an illness in that you don't have anyone to lean on and must be strong for them - but I don't understand why men would need specific services following terminations.