Disney Princesses

[GuybrushThreepwoodMightyPirate]

I'm trying to organise my thoughts on Disney Princesses. I have two young girls and am trying (sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing) to do a decent job of raising them feminists.

Because we don't live in a vacuum - and because I don't want them to feel 'left out' of conversations with their peers - they have had plenty of exposure to the Princesses. I feel that - whilst none of them is perfect from a feminist perspective - some of the films are far 'worse' than others so I have endeavoured to avoid these ones.

My main point of thinking about the films as a group came when I saw some research on films aimed at adults which had female leads and the fact that Hollywood seems to be cottoning on to the fact that women will spend money at the cinema to see films with strong female characters. So, in a very roundabout way, my point is: surely a large part of the pervasive universality of the disney princess films is down to the fact that they are the most readily available source of leading female characters for young girls, and they (like adult women) prefer to see themselves reflected onscreen. So to at least some extent, the Princess element is secondary at best and a result of the fact that little else is available to them.

I am aware that I may not have put my point across clearly but I am aiming to organise my thoughts on this. I am also keenly aware that it is problematic and undesirable to denigrate typically 'girly' pursuits from a feminist standpoint so I want to avoid this.

I'm really interested to hear other perspectives and thoughts on this if anyone's willing to share.

My children are still primary aged, so we have benefitted from the more modern Disney films, the more politically correct ones, and my children haven't even seen Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, Snow White, Little Mermaid, etc... but neither have I, nor DH.
My parents didn't show us that stuff, because even back in the seventies they thought it was damaging and retrograde.
Brave, though, DH and I love that film (I admit the bear bit can be scary for younger children, DS was unsure for quite some time). Allowing our children to be who they are, without judgement, letting them make mistakes, but still loving them, that's something we want for our children, male and female.
Frozen, was okay, perhaps if I had two girls it would have resonated more, but it was enjoyed, and the music was fun (the first time, thankfully my children weren't obsessed).
Moana, though, has captured my DD's imagination, she adores it (though unlike katymac's DD, my DD is classic Disney Princess material- blonde, rapunzel-esque hair, cornflower blue eyes). I agree, for her much of the Moana-love is about the music, but the appeal of adventure, the conflict of being yourself but fulfilling your duties, my DD is in the cusp of becoming a woman, so Moana ticks many boxes for her.
The Star wars reboots too, have been adored, and Rey and Jyn Erso are great characters.

But I just can't help being cynical. Disney know the world is changing, they know attitudes have moved on. And they're just cashing in, really, aren't they?

I think generally the films are not as harmful (apart from B&tB) as the merchandising expectation that all girls like all the princesses and therefore every lunchbox / t shirt / toothbrush must also have them on, to the extent that they become the default marker of femininity.

(Dd is fond of Mulan and DS of Moana but neither has any inclination to cement that liking with branded duvet cases.)

Bear with me, it's been a while since I saw Beauty and the Beast because DD is still too small, but...

Yes Belle is the Beast's prisoner because of the deal with her father. But doesn't she refuse to have anything to do with him until he stops being shouty and horrible? I.e. women don't have to put up with terrible behaviour - it's the beast's responsiblity to change and become civilised, rather than Belle just accepting that he's going to roar at her every time he doesn't get his own way. Instead of her loving him enough to make him change, isn't the onus on him to change the way he acts around her?

My favourite re-imagining of Cinderella is La Cenerentola (Rossini), where the Prince's tutor calls on Cinderella's household disguised as a beggar and is struck by how kind the scullery maid is to him - so when it comes to the ball announcement, the prince himself delivers the invitation, disguised as his own footman. He and Cinderella fall for one another with him genuinely thinking she's the maid of all work, and her genuinely thinking he's the footman... (and all proceeds from there in a typically complicated operatic fashion). And instead of an evil stepmother, we have an evil stepfather (admittedly that's probably more to do with the fact that Rossini needed another baritone role to balance things out for the opera company he had at his disposal).

Yes, dottir, I think that's a more accurate reading of the story. Belle also makes the deal against her father's wishes to save him. Gaston wants Belle for her beauty, but the Beast sees her true nature and gives her a library. The Beast is angry at the world because the world fears him because of his appearance, belle doesn't care about looks, despite being beautiful, and the Beast realises that he can be beautiful on the inside, which is then reflected on the outside.

The films in general are well made, and I don't think that it's just 'cashing in', more that writers and producers are from a different generation now, so have more contemporary values.

I also think in a generally feminist upbringing, there is room for art that isn't exclusively feminist. I was just encouraged to read everything, and that's no bad thing, even if some of the stuff I read wasn't at all feminist. Lots of great art is patriarchal.

Fascinating that there are such different readings of the film.
It's clear that either viewpoint can be justified by picking out parts of the film.

Basket, can I ask if you feel you had a feminist upbringing?

I did not, I wonder if in someway this is colouring which parts of the same film are staying with us?

I would certainly agree that children should not be shielded from non feminist material.
My daughter has watched many princess films including Beauty & Beast, I found it interesting that she had a haughty intolerance for Gaston but is ambivalent about the Beast

Opal, yes, my sister and I were raised by our single mother in a feminist environment. Art is her subject and she would always highlight the forgotten women artists, and point out the paintings actually painted by the 'artist's' daughter. I thought gender roles were just part of a sexist past for a long time as I just saw my mum do everything, and was taught to do the same. Cooking, cleaning, diy were all things adults did, in my mind.

I can see how if you have a sexist environment you could take negative things from Disney, though, but I think it's seen as more princessy than it actually is. A lot of the merch is very gendered.

There is some analysis about female roles in Disney and when the main character is a woman often so many sidekicks and others are men that they don't make up a huge number of the lines. It should be an interesting bit of research but because the author took a very surface view of it all they used Princess Jasmine as a major example. Shock horror that movie called Aladdin mainly follows the story of Aladdin. I'd be up for reading some actual feminist criticism of the films, though, and will look up the glosswitch one, Vestal.

Basket I recall reading an article some time back that analysed the dialogue content, and even in bloody Frozen more dialogue was delivered by the male characters.

Yes, this is a problem in a lot of films, and a lot of it is to do with the fact that characters are male by default. A passerby is likely to be a man unless there is a reason for them to be a woman. Even in crowd scenes things can be unequal.

I think there is a higher percentage of female judges in real life than in Hollywood films. If that's not right it's something along those lines.

I work in the arts and try to advocate a 'why not' approach to characters. Bystander is just a man as default, unless there's a reason to make them a woman they'll be a man, but we try to work the other way round. We do the same with ethnicity and disability as well, and the result is a world that resembles the real one much more.

My concern with Disney movies and many other kids films is that the stories of the women and girls tend to revolve around the expectations of men or the deeds of men. So, Belle is weird because she's expected not to read and then is held captive by a man. Her story is about making a man better. Ariel falls in love with a man. Elsa and Anna are tricked by a man. Moana has to sort out the misdeeds of a man (Maui). Merida (Brave) has to fight the expectation of her patriarchal society that she will marry.

I'd love to see a girl character who isn't dealing with men's shit but who just has an adventure with her friends or a female villain like Gru in Despicable Me. While all the Disney princesses are 'strong' their time is still taken up with men's needs and misdeeds. Which reflects reality of course, but it'd be nice if they could just do their own thing for a change.

Sparrow I think the answer to this is more female creatives. Writers are still overwhelmingly men, and so are the producers who decide what gets made. Unfortunately a lot of our ideas about good stories are based on patriarchal ideals so this wouldn't be a perfect solution, probably.

However, a lot of the Disney films feature a female lead and villain, so the main conflict and story is driven by women. They are also some of the best and most frightening villains around. I doubt most kids think of Maleficent differently from Jafar.

In fairness, Sparrow, I'd say the two most recent Disney-owned Star Wars films (The Force Awakens and Rogue One) do have female leads who are doing exactly that - just being the hero figure that holds the film together. (It was most amusing to see how upset some reviewers and idiots on the internet got because of this...)

There is some analysis about female roles in Disney and when the main character is a woman often so many sidekicks and others are men that they don't make up a huge number of the lines.

I recently read an interesting piece of research where they counted the words spoken by characters, and very few Disney movies, even the ones with princesses, had 50% words spoken by women.

Must see whether I can find it again.

That's good Hedgehog, I don't watch Star Wars so that one passed me by.

Basket - even with Maleficent, the story revolves around men - her love of Stefan, King Henry, Stefan's betrayal etc. She is made bitter by their actions and only finds love through being a 'mother' to Aurora. She is a very 'female' villain.

Moana or Brave. Both stories about strong girls who dont need no one to save them

For me, I feel context is more important than content. So dd recently had a role in a fairytale production at school. We talked at length about how daft it was that the female lead had bagging the Prince has her sole aim in life, and she said how everyone cringed at the lovely Dovey bits. My problems is I worry I will push them too far the other way - giving them the impression romantic live is a crock of shit at that all men are to be wary of. And of course I want them to have romantic relationships and to be happy - I just don't want them to make it the focus of their lives. Being separated from their abusive sad doesn't help matters. Although still being with him would be worse.

Sparrow - I meant in Sleeping Beauty where she is just out and it terrifying. I wouldn't say she's shown as the villain in Maleficent - isn't that more an allegory for the way humans abuse the natural world?

I don't disagree that there could be more female focused plot in genera, but Aladdin is entirely driven by falling in love with Jasmine, I don't think his pretending to be a prince is all that different to Ariel exchanging her voice for legs. I'd also say that Beauty and the Beast is about the 2 characters equally, not Belle alone. I don't think Frozen is a good example, though - the bad guy is a side plot, and the main action is driven by Elsa and Anna.

My problems is I worry I will push them too far the other way - giving them the impression romantic live is a crock of shit at that all men are to be wary of.

I do not think that is possible. This is you against the whole media industry. (And quite possibly their peers at school) You will lose the fight, the question is only by how much. Don't hold back out of fear you might accidentally "win" in a way you didn't intend; you won't.

I don't think Frozen is a good example, though - the bad guy is a side plot, and the main action is driven by Elsa and Anna.

But all side characters are male. Including the snowman and the reindeer.
I think this one was included in the study on how many words were spoken by women and by men, and either it was more words spoken by men, or just somewhat evenly split.

Yes, you're right about the supporting characters, although there are female trolls - don't forget the trolls!

I think the 2 issues are separate:

1. Male as default - so any side character will be male unless there is a good reason for them to be female. This is a problem across the industry, and is actually very simple to fix. The sex of the characters has no bearing on the plot, they could be anyone. So it has to be looked at separately from the main drivers of the story in order to judge the content of the main plot.
2. Main female characters reacting to the actions of men being the main plot drivers - I don't think this is true of Frozen at all.

don't forget the trolls!

Ugh, the trolls.
That forced marriage thing and song were just ... I can't even.
The trolls are another problem, but separate from the others.

Let's call it 3. Reinforcement of damaging cultural assumptions

Yes, Frozen avoids the problem of men being the main plot drivers.

Maleficent avoids the problem of men getting the most speaking time.

But I think there's no Disney film that avoids both.

Ah, found it:

pudding.cool/2017/03/film-dialogue/index.html

Possibly Sleeping Beauty has a good split as the 3 fairies, Aurora and Maleficent have lines and songs. The Queen doesn't say much. The Prince and Kings say a fair bit, and I think most Disney men talk to their horses a lot. But it may be an ok split.

I wouldn't say men drive he action in Sleeping Beauty. Only the Prince really does anything, whereas Aurora, the fairies and Maleficent all do quite a bit.

The side character issue is something that isn't really a Disney problem, though. It's throughout the industry, and I don't think Disney is significantly worse than anyone else.

The side character issue is something that isn't really a Disney problem, though. It's throughout the industry, and I don't think Disney is significantly worse than anyone else.

Oh, absolutely.

Disney is bashed a lot, but in fact, it is not worse than all other big companies.
It is just because the films are marketed specifically to girls that the problem is noticed more.

The problem that girls and women are not the target audience of 90% of films, and that even when women are the target audience, women get less speaking lines, less representation, etc, is all over the industry.