Disney Princesses

[GuybrushThreepwoodMightyPirate]

I'm trying to organise my thoughts on Disney Princesses. I have two young girls and am trying (sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing) to do a decent job of raising them feminists.

Because we don't live in a vacuum - and because I don't want them to feel 'left out' of conversations with their peers - they have had plenty of exposure to the Princesses. I feel that - whilst none of them is perfect from a feminist perspective - some of the films are far 'worse' than others so I have endeavoured to avoid these ones.

My main point of thinking about the films as a group came when I saw some research on films aimed at adults which had female leads and the fact that Hollywood seems to be cottoning on to the fact that women will spend money at the cinema to see films with strong female characters. So, in a very roundabout way, my point is: surely a large part of the pervasive universality of the disney princess films is down to the fact that they are the most readily available source of leading female characters for young girls, and they (like adult women) prefer to see themselves reflected onscreen. So to at least some extent, the Princess element is secondary at best and a result of the fact that little else is available to them.

I am aware that I may not have put my point across clearly but I am aiming to organise my thoughts on this. I am also keenly aware that it is problematic and undesirable to denigrate typically 'girly' pursuits from a feminist standpoint so I want to avoid this.

I'm really interested to hear other perspectives and thoughts on this if anyone's willing to share.

I love your user name and surely, playing the Monkey Island games will help your daughters realize that there's other job options beside princess ... pirate, for example.

I agree that the princess films are so popular because they have female main characters, and your daughters liking them doesn't mean you have failed in the endeavour to raise them as feminists.

However, the princess element will of course still have an influence.

Of course, you cannot completely isolate children from the world, and if they want to see the Disney princess films, they should be allowed to.

There's two kinds of problems with Disney films.

One is the princess role model. That's not so much of a problem as long as it is not the only one they have. Like failing the Bechdel test, girls being shown liking stereotypically girly things is mainly a problem because it is everywhere and it is never the other way round.

The other is the misogynist elements. If positive characters that the viewer is supposed to like to bad things, then even seeing that once is a problem, as a certain kind of behaviour - in the princess films, it is probably "treating women as a prize for men to win" - is shown as an option that good people can choose.

Taking the girls to see Maleficent, or buying the DVD and showing it to them, might be a good idea. I absolutely love that one.

Some of the more recent Disney films are better - Brave (she enters the archery contest to determine which of the suitors gets to marry her, and wins so she doesn't have to marry any of them), Moana (girl saves her world, no love interest at all) I have a soft spot for Tangled (the guy is prepared to die for her - I always mentally compare it to the Frog Princess one, which despite having an African American princess, has a lead male who I'd give approximately 2 years before he was shagging other women - he really comes across as a creep), and Frozen (the love which saves her is sisterly love, not romantic love).

I watched Disney films as a kid and the whole 'Disney Princess' thing is more about merchandise in my opinion. The content of a lot of the films aren't really princess heavy.

Mulan joins the army and saves China, Belle likes reading and turns down the man everyone thinks she should marry. Ariel is fascinated by humans before she falls in love and ignores her patriarchal father's warnings. The ones mentioned above are also good - I've not seen Brave, but probably will. A lot of the older films are a bit more traditional, but the princes are pretty dull characters in my opinion and don't get a better ride.

I actually think the films are fine if you have a generally feminist outlook. You can talk about the things you do and don't like about them. I think it's only a problem if you buy into the whole princess thing and everything you buy is pink and princessy.

Thank you - food for thought. Hopefully I'll get the balance about right!

Agree that some of the more recent ones are pretty good from a feminist point of view.

Not sure about Ariel being a good feminist role model. She comes across as a stroppy, thoughtless teenager. The plot would still work if it was a mother warning against the potential dangers crossing boundaries.
She also screws up and lets her father take the fall for her actions and she is rescued TWICE by male characters.

Sorry that was like ng. Can you tell I can't stand "The Little Mermaid"?

Interesting discussion, I recently rewatched Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and they had a stronger feminist vibe than I remembered.

Ok, maybe feminist is the wrong word but they are both told from female perspectives with a few different female characters that are different to one another.

Cinderella isn't rescued by the Prince. She is rescued by her mouse friends who love her because she was kind to them, even when no one was kind to her. (I know some might have a problem with kindness being portrayed as an ideal female virtue but I am OK with it). The Prince is Cinderella's prize rather than the other way around.

In Sleeping Beauty the protagonists are actually the Good Fairies who are old women. They have the most lines, they come up with and execute plans and the film is really their battle against Maleficent.

Snow White, however remains a wet blanket with a warble voice.

I found Ariel relatable as a stroppy teen and she still reminds me of my teen years (thankfully long behind me).

Moana is my favourite Disney heroine now, with Mulan, Pocahontas, and Belle quite close behind. Her bravery and kindness at the end makes me weep every time. My son adores it too and we talk about how cool Moana is.

I agree with a PP that you can watch and discuss Disney with a feminist outlook and still enjoy them.

I have a bit of a problem with Belle, she is presented as odd because she likes to read !

That is slightly bizarre, having a brain and not wanting to be just a wife makes her strange or special.

All the other women ,some of whom are referred to as bimbettes, are happy in thier tiny woolly minds fawning over men.
Also she is then taken prisoner by an awful beast, through her sweetness and understanding she begins to see he isn't mean, poor things just hurting!
Belle promptly falls in love with her abductor and saves his undeserving bullying ass!
Nope Belle really irritates me.

I totally agree about Belle.

This article shows very clearly how that film is not feminist at all: www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/03/how-feminist-was-disneys-original-beauty-and-beast

Belle is a very speshul snowflake. I bet nowadays she would have a very speshul gender identity, unlike all those other stupid "bimbettes" (I think the modern term would be "cis women".)

And yes, the beast is exactly as shitty as Gaston ... but Belle changes him through the power of love. Because one can totally change abusive men by loving them enough ... not.

I grew up with Disney princesses and managed to turn it as a strong feminist. Not to say that they should be seen to be feminist icons (!) but rather that it is about context, I watched and was influenced by many things including a working mother, strong females in real life and books etc. So enjoy the films and just make sure you balance it out with conversations and alternative experiences. Feminism is about choice and opportunity, not the exclusion of one type of woman (one who wants to be a princess and have long flowing hair!)

Vestal, one can be a pirate or a governor if you go by Monkey Island.

Vestal, one can be a pirate or a governor if you go by Monkey Island

You forgot the swordmaster! (Okay, perhaps you could class that under pirate ...)

Oh, and the voodoo lady, though perhaps that is more a calling than a career.

Quite the range of possible career choices.

jeopardy something popped up on my instagram just after I read your comment: "Cinderella never asked for a prince. She asked for a night off and a dress."

I'd never really thought about different ways to interpret elements of the princess films.

The Beast isn't an abusive man, though - when Belle arrives he is shortly to turn 21, and has been under the spell for 10 years. He was cursed as a child, and is more of an angry teenager because he was not protected by his parents. That is a common archetype in folk tales - usually a motherless girl - it signifies someone who must go on their own journey.

Many children who like to read and learn will be made to feel like they're weird. This is a common experience - many kids like that are bullied in school, and I think it's good that Belle just does her own thing and isn't interested in what everyone else wants her to do. And getting married was very important in the past, and still is for many people.

I think the whole thing about the film being about Stockholm Syndrome is funny, it's a good joke, but it isn't at all what the film is like.

I agree that the supporting characters like the good fairies are great, and there are a good few female villains who are terrifying. Kindness may be oppressive if it's forced on women and not men, but it is a good quality for children to learn, and the world would be a better place if we were all kinder, so I don't really have a problem with that. I think both boys and girls watch Disney and they all get the same lesson if raised in a feminist way generally, it will only be a negative message if the general way they're being brought up is sexist.

What might be interesting, OP, depending on the ages of your girls, as they may be a bit young yet, is to look at some of the folk tales that the stories are based on. I don't mean Andersen and Grimm, I mean the original folk tales they took them from that feature the wild woman archetype. The original Cinderella meets a wise woman in the wood and returns to burn her own house down. There's also Into The Woods, which is a Sondheim musical that looks at fairytales critically and creatively. There's a recent film of it that I didn't really like in terms of doing all the characters justice, but is a good way into the musical.

Don't you think it problematic that Cinderella is isolated from all other women? I mean, I know it appeals to children to get to feel special, but as you can see on tumblr, too much of catering to that might not be a good thing.
Have you read the article by Glosswitch? I cannot phrase it nearly as wel as she does.

The original Cinderella meets a wise woman in the wood and returns to burn her own house down.

I thought I knew all original fairytales, but that's news to me. Do you have a link? Is there a shoe in that version?
I know the one where the evil stepsisters cut off their own toes, but the wise woman I do not recall.

I think your points are interesting Basket, as they are around the more subtle points of the story.

But the subtlety will not be understood by most children.

They will not be watching films and understanding that women were not taught to read then making Belle, in real terms, special.

Also the Beast may actually be a child victim but that is not presented in the film's, when he rejects the witch and gains her curse he is shown as a vain, unkind man.

Kindness in all would be wonderful, and there are some really kind men and boys but it is still seen and taught as a female expectation and I actually do think it's very damaging to girls.

Yes, when watching the film's you can talk to children and break down some of the points, but children are not simply raised by their parents they are part of the world, and absorb all its messages.
The fact that Belle is a prisoner and saves the Beast simply by loving him out of his horrible mood is awful in my opinion. I think message has caused untold women huge damage in real life, just be more understanding, more kind, more sweet, gentle, beautiful and you can fix him.

I like Brave better because Merida has her own wishes, ambitions and she puts these front and centre in her mind.

I think that attitude is discouraged in girls and something that I really want for my daughter's.

I have long flowing hair and am feminist so I do know these things are not mutually exclusive!

I will try to find that story, Vestal. It is one of many stories that became Cinderella.

Cinderella's isolation from other women is central to the tale. Women without a female guide, who usually find the Baba Yaga, wise woman, Mother Nature guide in the story are symbolic for anyone who must face strife or a trial. go on a journey, or come of age alone. In real life there are many things that must be faced alone to some extent, and the orphan is a compelling character because it taps into this. Harry Potter is a good example. It's not about feeling special, it's about feeling alone, which is something which happens to us all at some point. I don't think every child who has felt alone turns into a self absorbed type, and actually find that most of the self absorbed ones have few real problems, thus glamourising 'problems' because it makes them more interesting. Cinderella would not have had time for that shit.

I agree with Basket, Cinderella's isolation doesn't make her special, it makes her lonely. And remember it is a mother figure who breaks through her isolation and gets her to the party.

Looking at Belle now there are problems from a healthy relationship viewpoint. But when I was little she was may favourite because -

She had brown hair like me (I don't know why this was important)
She liked books like me
She wanted an adventure and she sang then an adventure happened - I tried singing her song in the hope something would happen!
The castle was cool - endless food and a library
That ballgown

I think as a child it always seemed weird to me that Beast locked up Belle's Father. For a man who wanted to be left alone that didn't make any sense.

OP Totally agree, not sure what's better, no films with a female lead or princesses. I actually would go princesses.

Brave absolutely terrified my DD so maybe watch that one first before showing it to your kids.
I like the first tinkerbell cartoon. No romance at all and she is an engineer!
Best of all though is star wars: the force awakens. Rey is awesome.

After watching Moana I realised that her storyline could work just as well for a young man going on a quest. She's more a heroine than a 'Disney princess'

You have a good point OP. Girls are attracted to Disney princess films because it's the only place women get screentime - I never thought of it This way. Boys films and TV are equally gendered I'd imagine.

It's just a shame that the message is then so anti feminist - at the root of each story (maybe with the exception of some of the modern ones mentioned here) the princesses are beautiful, thin, young damsels in distress in simplistic and misogynistic worlds where the ultimate goal is marrying a prince and living happily ever after ... often juxtaposed with an old barren crone or similar!!

I definitely remember talking about the beast's age when I was a kid. Along with questions about how old Chip the cup was, and what 'into the cupboard worn your brothers and sisters' meant - was Mrs Potts the mother of all china? Children are able to deal with complexity, to recognise inconsistencies and still take something from the story. I'm not saying a 4 year old will get it all first time, but Disney films stand repeat viewing, and most aren't really for very little ones. It's also not just the women who can't read, Gaston asks Belle how she can read a book with no pictures.

It works in with the whole racism thing too - dd was delighted with Tiana and even at nearly 20 is ecstatic with moana as they are visibly 'liked' her (although moana might be connected with her current obsession with lin Manuel miranda)

The lack of positive non-white role models for girls is much more than for boys imo - I mean if you aren't a sports woman or a popstar you are very visible as a black/mixed woman so Tiana was a breakthrough for my DD at least

I agree that it's the merchandising that is more focused on what the princesses look like. Recent movies have had strong female protagonists. The princes metaphor, I'm my opinion, is ok as long as she is learns to troubleshoot and problem solve. The Power of Myth is a great book to find out more about the importance of myths in story telling. I detest all Disney based books though, they are usually appallingly written.

katy - I loved Tiana for that reason (and the soundtrack... one of the few Disney soundtracks I like). I just hated the prince in that one. He was so obviously a philandering slime-ball.

(I have always hated Beauty and the Beast in all its incarnations - actually Disney's version is one of the less offensive versions. It is like a training manual in putting up with DV: "if you love him enough you will change him into a decent person." Bleurgh.)