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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

iPlayer show about legal street prostitution in Leeds

27 replies

breakabletoy · 30/06/2017 14:43

Has anyone seen this? It's about a "managed" area of street prostitution.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p04cq5w8

It's very confronting. And it has absolutely solidified my position against legalised prostitution. I don't know how anyone can look at the lives of these women, and tacitly condone the situation through legalisation.

OP posts:
AceholeRimmer · 30/06/2017 14:55

Awful isn't it.. I used to work next door and often had cars pulling up beside me. They are all so fragile and come from shitty backgrounds Sad They earn a lot of money so could get out of that situation but the drugs eat it all up. I just wanna whisk them all away somewhere..
But if you read punting forums, they justify it by saying they don't use street prostitutes but use the ones from Adultwork who aren't druggies and have their own places. Okay that's alright then..

PovertyJetset · 30/06/2017 15:07

It's tragic.

And so many of these women are foster kids/care leavers. We must start much much earlier with proper intervention and support for children in need.

Heart breaking that's how people are
Living.

FannyWisdom · 30/06/2017 15:12

Watching this series made my mind up that brothels should be regulated and legalised.
I'm not a supporter of sex work but surely some safety and over seeing is better than the women being so absolutely vulnerable.
Comparing this series to the channel 4 British Brothel I would choose brothel.

mtpaektu · 30/06/2017 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 30/06/2017 16:54

I used to park around that area of Leeds and had to stop because the area is so unsafe now. It appals me that we're condoning the abuse of these women, and furthermore that it is considered acceptable that all other women in the area have to put up with higher levels of harassment as a consequence.

Initially there were outreach workers who manned a post there, but I haven't seen them for a while - I used to think it was a positive thing that they were trying to reach these women, but now the cynic in me thinks it was just a box they had to tick when they first legalised it.

Sophia1984 · 30/06/2017 16:56

Oh I watched the pilot episode of this and it was heartbreaking. Will watch the rest if I can bear it.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 30/06/2017 17:02

Also, there are lots of women who have exited prostitution in New Zealand who have very different opinions to the state of brothels there.

Rae Story's article is quite enlightening as to how the initial glamour soon dies off. www.feministcurrent.com/2016/05/02/working-in-a-new-zealand-brothel-was-anything-but-a-job-like-any-other/

The other issue of course is that legalised brothels usually creates more demand than supply and so you get the situation like in Germany where they are mostly full of immigrant (and frequently trafficked) women and girls who are shipped in by pimps.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 30/06/2017 17:21

Yes, experience in Germany suggests legalised brothels drive up trafficking and don't get rid of street prostitution - all they do is to drive down the going rate for street prostitution. Apparently the going rate for a blow job in Hamburg from a street prostitute is about the price of a big Mac.

Within a matter of weeks of the great fanfare about setting up the tolerated red light zone in Holbeck in Leeds, Daria Pionko was murdered. It didn't make life safer for her.

I do understand the appeal of damage limitation, but it seems to me such a defeatist strategy. I can imagine someone in the 18th century saying "Well, slavery has always been with us, let's work with slave owners to ensure they feed their slaves properly and don't use unreasonable physical chastisement." Legalised brothels for me are not far removed - someone (usually a man) profiting out of the desperation, poverty and misery of women who have to endure rape-for-pay.

FannyWisdom · 30/06/2017 17:27

Aye Dodo that's why I think it needs intervention. I'm under no illusions that it's what we should be encouraging. It's not a healthy lifestyle choice.
We can't just allow the current state to continue.
Enough other countries have done it for the U.K. to be able to put together a safer alternative.

ElusiveDuck · 30/06/2017 17:35

I used to be for legalised prostitution. Then I became one. Now, I'm completely against it.

Topics like this are fairly triggering for me, but they are so important, and reading comments from you ladies really helps me to process what I went through.

Talks of legalizing both prostitution and drugs is very worrying, since those two things so often go hand-in-hand. The drug and sex industries are hugely interlaced.

I'm scared for my daughter growing up in this world, with this new defanged appealing-to-men feminism.

MrBobDobalina · 30/06/2017 17:37

The other issue of course is that legalised brothels usually creates more demand than supply and so you get the situation like in Germany where they are mostly full of immigrant (and frequently trafficked) women and girls who are shipped in by pimps.

I live in Holland and lately billboards have gone up around my neighbourhood advertising a brothel in Germany. It particularly upsets me because my 6yo son can read now and he said to me, "100 girls?". I try to be honest with him but the concept of paying for sex is just far too much to discuss at this age IMO.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 30/06/2017 18:12

MrBob - it's the normalisation of it that is horrific, isn't it? I have a slightly older son, and I'm so glad I live in a country where I don't have to explain ads for the local brothel on supermarket trolleys (one instance I heard about from a German friend).

Elusive Flowers

MrBobDobalina · 30/06/2017 18:38

That's exactly what it is hedgehog. I have no problem with explaining just about anything else to him (though I might sometimes feel a bit embarrassed, it's just facts of life stuff), but the idea that you see women advertised on walls in the same place that we also see cars being advertised, or even (last winter) the Christmas circus ad in the same spot!

I couldn't begin to go into it with him, so I said, "Yes it says 100 girls, but they're women aren't they?" (two faces on the poster) and he agreed and we walked on.

From memory I think that the posters are only in English with a German address, but that doesn't help much when young children are bilingual as many are here!

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 30/06/2017 18:52

MrBob that's so upsetting - how can you expect boys to grow up respecting girls and women if society so blatantly tells them they're something to buy.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 30/06/2017 21:55

The following is definitely NSFW (graphic images of some of the ads in German cities) and (much as I normally have little time for such things) in this instance genuinely deserves a trigger warning for the level of sheer horror: Legalization has turned Germany into the bordello of Europe in Feminist Current.

Surely no-one can read this and think full legalization is a good idea.

DJBaggySmalls · 30/06/2017 22:27

I used to live next to a red light district and couldn't walk home from the shops or school, or walk the dog without being propositioned. Any time of day or night. Many men wouldn't take no for an answer and would follow you. They treated women on the street like we were goods on a supermarket shelf.
At that time I was half in favour of legal brothels. I figured women were going to do it anyway and they may as well be safe. But its clear making it legal doesn't do anything to improve womens lives or mens attitudes.

cheminotte · 30/06/2017 22:44

Thanks for that link Hedgehog . I can read German and the content was awful.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 30/06/2017 23:46

That was awful Hedgehogs - I knew it was bad but teaching classes that get 15 year olds to discuss how to modernise a brothel? I'm horrified - I cannot believe how normalised this has become.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/07/2017 02:11

The klaxon doesn't seem to have sounded yet for this thread. Usually this type of thread attracts the usual suspects of "high class escorts" and punters calling you all a bunch of narrow- minded prudes.

There really is no case to argue for anything other than criminalisation of buyers.

PoochSmooch · 01/07/2017 06:51

So glad I live in France which has gone for the Nordic Model.

I can barely get through that Feminist Current article. WTF, Germany? They're teaching it in schools? Sad And all that advertising. Normalisation by totally saturating the environment with women as commodities.

Jesus. I feel sick.

PoochSmooch · 01/07/2017 06:52

There will always be prostitution regardless of how legal it is

I disagree in the strongest terms. I think humanity can do better. I know we can.

ISaySteadyOn · 01/07/2017 08:16

Indeed, Pooch. WTF Germany? That article was awful to read.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 01/07/2017 09:44

Going back to the "prostitution has always been with us" argument, and my counter-claim that people used to say that about slavery, I came across the following in today's Washington post:

"This same conflict could be seen in the issue of slavery. In the 19th century, pro-slavery sentiment had long claimed that the practice in the United States was milder than in the Caribbean. Southern niceness, as imagined under slavery, fed this myth of American exceptionalism, leading Northerners such as the physician Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. to claim that slavery in the United States was practiced “in its best and mildest form.”

"Yet former slave and abolitionist Frederick Douglass dismissed the myth of the kind slaveowner as “most absurd.” How can kindness play any role in slavery, Douglass asked, when one is “robbed of wife, of children, of his hard earnings, of home, of friends”? If kindness were the rule in the master-slave relationship, Douglass argued, then Southern newspapers would not be filled with runaway-slave notices describing branding with irons and scarring from whips."

I want to be like Douglass, not like Wendell Holmes. The massive PR industry bankrolled by pimps and punters, dedicated to promulgating the myth of the happy hooker shouldn't gaslight us into taking our eye off the ball: for most women in prostitution, it is a nasty, abusive, dangerous and miserable business to be in.

theshitcollector · 01/07/2017 23:15

I often find myself trying to justify my opinions on prostitution to friends who consider themselves more 'realistic' and 'liberal' than me. I forced myself to watch this series to sense check my views and found it even more harrowing than I expected.

One thing that really came across was the vulnerability of the women involved and the circular link between prostitution, abuse and drugs. It was clear that not only were the women putting themselves in danger to get money for their own drugs but also being used by men who claim to care for them as money making machine, regardless of the risk to themselves.

I have spent some time working with ex-drug addicts and one thing that they consistently say is that access to 'easy' money (ie a way of getting money that requires no planning and where being on drugs is not a problem) makes it less likely that they will engage with treatment for addiction (even where it is available). There is one episode where a mother is trying to persuade her daughter to come home and get clean; she refuses to give her money (which is exactly what families are advised to do, and what ex-addicts say is the best action) but knows that she will go on the streets to get it. Watching this I couldn't help feel that these women are seen as dispensible. Even though allowing men to pay for sex is probably making it less likely that vulnerable women will ever get and stay free of drugs society does not want to stop it.

The idea that men 'need' to be able to get sex when they want it and that it's acceptable for them to get it from vulnerable women who 'choose' this way of life saddens me.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 02/07/2017 01:20

I often find myself trying to justify my opinions on prostitution to friends who consider themselves more 'realistic' and 'liberal' than me

I think you will find it easier if you just keep in mind that anyone who will buy a prostitute is about the same level of scum as anyone who would drink and drive. I've found that really useful. There really is no excuse for either.

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