Terrorism and male pattern violence

[Collidascope]

Why is it that articles and comments on social media abound about our 'Islam Problem' but it's never pointed out that it is Muslim men who do this? That linked to this is the fact that 96% of worldwide homicides are committed by men?
Surely if we're serious about wanting to stop this, looking at how we're socialising little boys needs to be one of the big factors. It just seems to be completely glossed over! Until someone with authority points this out and addresses it, the violence and killing will just go on and on, and it's horrendous to think that the horror that happened on Monday night isn't even large-scale compared to what is going on every day.
Male violence almost seems to be seen as inevitable.

And also interesting that when there's a terrorist attack, people are encouraged to carry on living as they were, to be defiant. No one is expected to curb behaviour (e.g. not go out drinking in a mini skirt anymore) and 'be responsible for not putting themselves in a dangerous situarion', because that would be letting the terrorists (rapists) win.

I'm a little hesitant about posting this as I've seen other things which have gone beyond the 'How awful, poor victims' line shot down as 'too soon' but this just seems like the big elephant in the room to me.

I too am not sure what the point is either. I think I am one of the ones providing the most resistance to this idea, and I have already agreed that men are the main perpetrators of violence. My main point, however, is that I am unconvinced that generic male violence is the best explanation for terrorism

Yes I agree Chilli I wasn't querying your points.

Sorry everyone I hrtft. I have been thinking a bit about this myself. It is obviously male-pattern violence, but... but.... but....

Why?

What is this deep fury that can be stoked in men by extremist ideologies. Why is it so misogynistic? Why do these males feel entitled to control and dominate other people - especially women, in life?

Where is the expectation that they deserve some special prize for being born male coming from? Why can they become murderous when they don't get it?

We know that 'western' culture tells boys, right from fairy tails, through computer games, to the movies to the porn they watch - that when they play the game eventually they get the prize (or prizes) handed to them on a plate - resembling a Madonna/Whore Margot Robbie, to applause and jealous approval from other men.

What is the equivalent bullshit that Islam teaches boys to expect? Why is it so seductive for males in prison and at a loose end in their lives to sign up to? I think there is a call for feminist scrutiny of patriarchal religion right now - and we need to hold our noses.

Cults tend to work in the same way whether they are religious, political or death fixated. They find young people who have been told by society that they don't matter, or are othered by the society they live in and they love bomb them. They offer understanding and love and a place to belong. And so it goes on until they have ostracised their families and all the people who care about them in order to be more involved in "the cause".

It's a horribly abusive relationship. their feelings of inadequacy will be played on, their anger harnessed and twisted.

And this is what's working so beautifully for the ISIL death cult right now, with all the Islamophobia that's being reported on by MSM, it's really easy to point to it and make out that the West hates young Muslim men. So, young Muslim men who haven't got what they were promised, who see themselves as hated and vilified and who don't engage socially are picked off by people who will train them slowly and incrementally to do despicable things. Girls are told that they will have a glorious future life if they go and fight or have babies for the "brave fighting men"

The same thing is happening with young white males who get involved with far right ideologies.

I think it is more that that Xenophile. Many of the men getting radicalised are converting and getting radicalised in Prison.

I once worked in a Children's home and I remember all the non-muslim kids were converting to Islam because they wanted to join in with Ramadan and Eid. I wonder if in prison there is a certain way of winding up the staff by insisting on Islamic observances... I remember in the film Scum, a character wound up the guards by saying he felt "drawn to Mecca"...

Ok

With the killer Elliot Rogers - a 'Western' male, I've read his writings and seen some of his videos and there seems to be a romanticised ludicrous 'poor me' narrative - that reminded me of Goethe's 'The Suffering of Young Werters'.

My instinct is that these suicide bombers have a similar view of themselves as a romantic hero, hard done by and rejected, and there's something in their radicalisation (including self-radicalisation) that feeds this sort of poetic distortion of reality.

Because Xenophile most cults do, as you say, have love-bombing, etc.. but they are different. They are centralised, there are charismatic leaders, etc etc. Someone who 'self-radicalises' has none of this.

We have British people with the same mind set though. All those who say deport all the Muslims, shrug their shoulders at dead kids being washed up on beaches, ignore park bombs in Pakistan that injured 100s of people, think using drones on hospitals and schools in foreign countries is just collateral damage. These people would be the ones that ISIS would recruit if they believed in Islam instead of Christianity.

Come now. There is a big difference between being indifferent to violence, especially when many feel that the underlying issues are intractable, and purposefully committing violence. Not remotely the same.

We can't kids ourselves that in the West we have an enlighted view of women because we're not forced to wear certain items of clothing.

Really? You aren't comparing like things at all. We aren't perfect by any stretch, but we are a hell of a lot better than a place that doesn't allow women to drive.

I'm saying the same mentality exists in both cultures. Maybe those of us that are indifferent to violence have more parallels to the members of the Muslim community who don't commit violence but are happy to let others do it on their behalf. The ones blowing people up are more like the ones from our culture attacking Muslims on the street or Mosques.

I don't think the British people in this country that rape women and abuse children give a shit about our right to drive, they hate us/ have as much contempt of us as the law makers in Saudi.

It's about people's attitudes to women and unfortunately, lots of people all over the world from all different walks of life have the same view. Some are just better at hiding it.

you can 'understand' a suicide attack in cases where it is perhaps the only way to achieve your 'aim' (a target like a Prime Minister etc where you expect to be dispatched, but hopefully after you have shot them, or where a bomb vest is the only way to kill them.), but the IS fighters and these suicide bombers, the suicide seems to be as much an aim as the murders. After all, a 'freedom fighter' from the people effected usually wants to fight when necessary and then live with the results afterwards. They want to create something to live for, not just something to die for.

Good point SomeDyke ...just catching up with the thread

Suicide bombing, and other forms of suicide where you take out a lot of others with you, is a very male way to take one's own life. I believe it is all about male entitlement and the expectation that a male's life must have a heroic arc to it, in order for it to be worth living.

These bombers (and other suicide massacre-killers) have a desire for their life (or more literally their death) to have made a big impact in the world.

Women simply are not fed this story at any point from girlhood up. In fact we need to fight against societies norms to have narratives of female heroism anywhere (historical or fictional) in mainstream culture.

What is it about Islam that feeds this ridiculous notion into the heads of males who are hungry for a heroic arc and a big impact in their, so far, insignificant lives, that the best way to do this is to die -
spectacularly?

Xenophile - you're right, Florida was a mass shooting. I should have said "targetted attacks"

I just decided to google: www.islamreligion.com/articles/38/belief-in-life-after-death/

And most of this Judgement Day, etc - is pretty much the same as the Revelation of John in the New Testament.. But it differs here:

Unlike a pass-fail system in some other belief-systems, the Islamic view is more sophisticated and conveys a higher level of divine justice. This can be seen in two ways. First, some believers may suffer in Hell for unrepented, cardinal sins. Second, both Paradise and Hell have levels.

Paradise is the eternal garden of physical pleasures and spiritual delights. Suffering will be absent and bodily desires will be satisfied. All wishes will be met. Palaces, servants, riches, streams of wine, milk and honey, pleasant fragrances, soothing voices, pure partners for intimacy; a person will never get bored or have enough!

Which strikes me as really fecking weird, since it is all about lazing around (who are the servants?) gorging on food, getting pissed and shagging in Paradise.

In a word, Guardian, martyrdom. This website explains it quite well in relation to Islam, but of course martyrs aren't exclusive to that religion.

Imagine thinking that you will be remembered like Joan of Arc - quite a legacy, especially if your life to date feels rather unremarkable

Guardian - none of that stands up to scrutiny (like so much of religion). "Pure partner" is a euphemism for virgin - even in heaven women cannot escape the virgin / whore dichotomy - so what happens to the partner when she is not pure any more? She gets booted out of heaven to go and serve elsewhere...?

Nobody shares one tiny iota of "blame for" or "tendency towards" something anyone else does because they are the same gender.

The perpetrators' being-a-piece-of-shit pattern murdering is what causes terrorism.

theshitcollector, it's irritating, isn't it? When women object to being told which activities, clothing and substances to eliminate to keep themselves safe, they get the refrains of, "well, you shouldn't have to lock your car, but people do it because that's the world we live in," or, "well, you wouldn't walk down the road waving your wallet round, would you?"
Well, gee, tell me how to lock my vagina with the ease with which I lock my car or house, and I'll happily do it.
It seems that it's only when it's men's safety at stake and freedom curtailed that we start thinking, "Actually, perhaps it's not really fair to ask them not to carry on doing what they enjoy -getting that busy train and going to that concert or that football march- just because there's a tiny chance they'll get hurt. How about we encourage them to carry on as normal and we'll do our very best to catch the bad guys and prevent attacks and not rely on everyone hiding away as a preventative measure?"

Also, bizarrely, the advice given to women is massively unlikely to help prevent rape, given where most rapes happen, who perpetrates them, and what most victims are wearing (jeans). At least the advice of "Basically, stay at home" is likely to prevent you being blown up or shot, even if it massively curtails freedom to reduce the risk of what is actually already highly unlikely to happen to you.

I honestly wonder how the message would go if it were only groups of females who were being targeted by terrorists. Would they be encouraged to disband or would the fact that we've already got our 'be defiant' line re. terrorism mean that it'd be the same approach as for the terrorism that targets everyone?

GuardianLions, that's interesting what you say about children's homes.

I read a while back a suggestion that catering arrangements for prison food were (for random reasons) better for halal food - and that this was proving a draw.

I doubt it's the only element. But it was an interesting possible element.

halal food - and that this was proving a draw.

That is really interesting Perking and it has jogged another couple of memories about halal... I remember this one employee in a different place - who was a right overbearing dick, and he kept banging on about how 'only halal people can use the halal cutlery and crockery, and if non-halal people use it, the things are no longer halal'.

It was a really nasty way of being snooty and intimidating to non-Muslims - basically saying we are 'unclean' right to our faces. I had never been anywhere where they had separate cupboards, etc for halal and non-halal in the kitchens before- it was so over the top. I was being all kind of tolerant and 'multi-culti' and just took the slight. Its interesting that the African/Caribbean women dug their heels in and ate off the halal stuff as a big fuck you to him. They knew what that racially motivated snobbery was all about.

Interestingly enough about this one bloke - another employee said he thought this man was abusive asking me "don't you notice that all the residents start going mad when he arrives?"

So perhaps religious hypocrisy is a draw? ie- I can be an abusive arsehole, but if I observe a few practices, I can be 'clean' and think of others as 'unclean'.

OlennasWimple Yes its really interesting how this notion of paradise completely defies logic and could only be believed by someone who is either incapable of using logic or had wilfully rejected it.

Is it just 'faith'?

Thanks for the link OlennasWimple

I've just been reading the 'about' page of that link you gave OlennasWimple and I must say that I winced to start off with. The arguments seem parallel to the arguments about trans ideology and activism - but pretty shockingly blunt. I don't think it is an extremist site, but my first instinct was to reject it outright because it hit an 'racist' nerve:

where Islam dominates, there is systematic discrimination and oppression of those outside the faith. Where Muslims are a minority, there is a trend toward peevish self-interest and eventual violence when demands for special privilege and entitlements are not met. No other religion is so demanding of respect while doing so little to earn it.

Rather than great humanitarian accomplishment or true peace, Islam breeds arrogance and self-absorption: the collective petulance, narcissism and perpetual grievance that broadly characterizes Muslim populations. Hinduism has very little in common with Western religion, for example, yet Hindus generally assimilate and contribute positively to host countries while Muslim migration is accompanied by social strain

I have to have a think about it - because I don't see a "collective petulance, narcissism and perpetual grievance that broadly characterizes Muslim populations" .... It seems a bit strong and without qualification - you can't dis a whole population like that. However I do take issue with Islam - just the fact that 'Islam' means 'submit' pisses me off by itself and has always pissed me off since I first learned about it in RE!

Maybe those of us that are indifferent to violence have more parallels to the members of the Muslim community who don't commit violence but are happy to let others do it on their behalf.

As I said, I think one reason for the apathy is the feeling of powerlessness. Most people don't know about the violence in other countries, and those who do might feel powerless to stop it. I don't have the foggiest idea of how to stop the violence in the ME.

On the other hand, it's worse to be indifferent to violence in your own community. One has substantially more control over that.

What I am objecting to is the equivalence between our society and "theirs". You are talking about societies that think of women as property (both in commonly thought, and legally enshrined). That's very far from the mainstream here.

Yeah, the site isn't quite a objective as it makes out to be, but some of the summaries of key issues are helpful to those of us unfamiliar with the details in the Quran

I can quite believe that halal food in prisons is better. I also understand that getting regular time to associate for prayers is a draw for prisoners, along with the group (gang?) support of being part of an identifiable whole. It also troubles me greatly that the prisoners who pose the highest threat to the UK (convicted terrorists) are held in the same, high security prison, but I guess I have to trust that NOMS are managing the situation.

I haven't heard of halal items being tainted if used by non-muslims, but I understand that some very strict Jews take this approach to keeping kosher

I haven't heard of halal items being tainted if used by non-muslims, but I understand that some very strict Jews take this approach to keeping kosher

It's really rather offensive.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/05/dressed-for-death-the-women-boko-haram-sent-to-blow-themselves-up

It's worth remembering that some women don't get a choice. Kidnapped by Boko Haram, forcibly married, raped and used as human bombs.