Drag

[Exitedwoman]

Can anyone help me with a riposte to this? Someone sent it to me and I know I disagree, but my words don't carry as much weight as a YouTube vid apparently.

The main thing I think about drag is it is so unutterably boring. Man puts on wig/makeup/frock and it is served up as some creative, entertaining art form but in reality it's just attention seeking dressing up.

Ovaries

The trans things, I think, is because it gives off the 'man in a dress' vibe, which is harmful to tw. Of course not everyone will see it that way, just like not all women find drag offensive.

I enjoy drag, I am just trying to think of it a bit more critically as I've never considered these angles before.

I wouldn't equate it to blackface, which is used in its current form to allow white actors to replace black ones in performances, thereby shutting people of colour out of theatre

What if its a place where black actors are simply not available?
Ok, UK is multicultural enough, but there places where there are not many black people at all, let alone talented actors.

What if its a place where black actors are simply not available?
Ok, UK is multicultural enough, but there places where there are not many black people at all, let alone talented actors

What on earth are you suggesting? That a school in a remote part of say the Appalachian mountains or the Outer Hebrides with only white pupils wants to put on a production of Guess who's Coming to Dinner they use a blacked up actor?

Posted too soon. Shakespeare for example can be cast ethnically blind and often sex blind.

In the example I gave where the ethnicity of the character played by Sidney Poitier is essential then if a production was being staged where only white actors were available you would use another way to distinguish the otherness of his character.

The white family for example could be dressed entirely in one colour and the black actor entirely in another colour.

i haven't seen anyone blacked up really, but if only white performers are available, shouldn't they be allowed to produce 'Aida' for example?

if a production were being staged

I agree with Goldstars. That is just what I feel. I sometimes got dragged along (haha) to drag bars with gay friends (in my youth, not any more) and it made me feel really uncomfortable. Not helped by the fact that the most misogyny I've ever heard spoken out loud was from gay men in gay clubs and bars.

i haven't seen anyone blacked up really, but if only white performers are available, shouldn't they be allowed to produce 'Aida' for example?

Has anyone ever suggested the role of Aida should only be sung by a black woman? Opera is like Shakespeare colour blind casting of any role is not problematic.

It's interesting because it's difficult to identify where the offence actually lies.

The black and white minstrel show was offensive because they all adopted a hey derr stereotype. Reducing black people to an insulting characteristic.

I enjoyed Mrs Doubtfire and I think I still would. I feel as though Robbin Williams was more in disguise than anything else. And you were laughing at his expense, not that of women.

Likewise Tootsie. One of the main elements of that was that she realised how much worse she got treated as a woman.

And on both occasions when they were caught, they were vilified within the script.

Frank N Furter wasn't parodying women at all. He was a transvestite.

I'm wondering if it is about the performance, rather than the concept.

I have seen drag acts which are definitely intimidating and a little menacing.

As though the mere donning of womanhood allows them to be bitchy and precious and yet threatening all in one. This is the one I have a problem with because I actually do feel offended. I'm not having to analyse it.

As for other drag acts, I'm not sure. If you have to wonder whether you are offended, it's not as clear-cut.

Although, most people were never offended by the black-and-white minstrels at the time. I think that is what is in people's minds.

I meant to add, I can think of very few examples of blackface other than the black-and-white minstrels?

Is Ali G not blackface?

Or that character on the League of Gentlemen? Papa Lazarou or something

What about the Craig David character on Bo Selecta?

SylviaPoe

I only know Ali G. Yes, that was, except he didn't actually black up. He relied on other peoples fear of causing offence.

Although he did 'blacktalk'. And despite his MO relying on causing offence, I don't think he does that character any more, does he?

Minefield.

One could argue Rachel Dolezal is blackface.

Mariposa said: 'One could argue that drag-Queens are coming from a different perspective than people who engage in blackface, though. Blackface inevitable comes from a place of hate, but does drag? But then, does motivation even matter?'

Germaine Greer said that women have very little idea of how much men hate them so maybe drag does come from the same place. That by reducing a class of people to a caricature where behaviour and appearance signal stupidity and non-humanity, men express their contempt for women, and are then disregard them and abuse them.

Opera is a fairly ridiculous example to be honest. The number of Mimis and Violettas who have been played by unconsumptive women makes the idea of Aida being played by a white woman as herself seem commonplace. And bloody lazy casting.

Opera is a fairly ridiculous example to be honest. The number of Mimis and Violettas who have been played by unconsumptive women makes the idea of Aida being played by a white woman as herself seem commonplace. And bloody lazy casting

I was going to mention the robust Mimis and Violettas. (I'm looking at you Royal Opera for a big, strapping Mimi, last year I think)

I don't think it is lazy casting however- more to do with availability of singers. No one insists Aida is black or Ciocio-san Japanese.

I wonder if no one insists on that because there are no black or Japanese sopranos who could sing it, or because opera, like so much else that is the preserve of the privileged few fails to nurture BAME talent to the extent that they might then have a pool of singers to choose from.

I have only recently started to think critically about drag and the thing that prompted it was the blending of drag make up into main stream female make up trends.

All the heavy contouring, the "showgirl fan" style false eyelashes and the just the sheer volume of make up worn - women are starting to look very much like men parodying women and I find it disconcerting.

If drag was really just a theatrical expression that allowed men to wear sparkly dresses and belt out Diana Ross tunes then it could be seen as merely a type of artistry but if beauty ideals are trending towards this "hyper feminine", utterly constructed model of the female then actually, I think there is more to drag than I had previously considered.

I also have some uncomfortableness around the idea that campness and femininity are the same thing. Campness for me is a theatrical, often hysterical expression of personality and I don't view those as particular female or male traits, anybody can be camp. However, I think drag frames it as "female" and therefore perpetuates the trope that females are irrational, hysterical and over the top. There is also that underbelly of nastiness and sometimes quite aggressive "humor" that relies on humiliating others.

I have gone right off drag and I now think it is very much the same as black face.

Re. Mrs. Doubtfire - I don't think the actual act of dressing up as an older woman was necessarily offensive - the point was he was the stereotypical "perfect" nanny (although obviously, gender roles, reflection of society, etc.). I think the sexism comes in much earlier than that, with the whole concept of the film being he can't see his children because his nasty wife has gone off with another man (or does she meet him later?), and he's such a great devoted dad. I suppose films are generally about spectacularly unlikely events, though...

Re. blackface... there was controversy around Chris Lilley's character Jonah (Lilley was blacked up) but not so much around the character J'mie (or however it's spelt!) where he played a spoilt bitch teen girl...

I wonder if no one insists on that because there are no black or Japanese sopranos who could sing it, or because opera, like so much else that is the preserve of the privileged few fails to nurture BAME talent to the extent that they might then have a pool of singers to choose from

I really dislike this idea opera (or ballet) is only for a privileged few

There are black and Japanese opera singers but the %age of the total female population of all ethnic origins who could competently sing Aida, Mimi, Ciocio-san , Brunhilde or Violetta is miniscule. The 2011 census in the UK has 86% white, 8% , Asian/Asian British and 3%Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. I expect those figures would apply more or less to most of Europe although the black population of the US will be higher. It's not therefore hugely surprising there aren't that many black opera singers in European based companies. South Africa has Cape Town opera which I assume has a much higher number of black singers.

In any case it's not correct it is not being addressed.

Black British Classical Foundation | Reach Volunteering
reachskills.org.uk/org/black-british-classical-foundation-0

I can't imagine where you live or what theatre events you are talking about but what you describe really isn't a current thing. You have a point if you meant actors who are not of a specific indigenous ethnic orgigin playing characters of that origin.

That is what I meant, sorry. All-white casts putting on Hairspray and blacking up half the cast. Just don't do Hairspray!

You might dislike the idea, but it is the truth.

When even regional ballet and opera companies charge prices that are out of range of the majority of the country, then it is the preserve of the privileged few. That might make you feel uncomfortable, but it is what it is.

Note that there are performers called "Drag kings", women who imitate men.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_king

And there's currently a "boy band" that's very popular in China, but actually made up of girls:
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/30/the-female-husbands-boyband-of-girls-win-hearts-china-acrush

I think there's more to say about crossing gender lines than simply a feminist response of how it treats women. If it can be fascinating in either direction, then maybe there's something more universal going on. It would be interesting to hear what real psychologists make of it.

I really dislike this idea opera (or ballet) is only for a privileged few
sadly, it does take privilege to get into performing arts in general, purely for financial reasons and probability of an actually successful career. There was a talk about a lack of actors with working-class accents, because mainly they come from fancy private schools.
But that's beside the point. It doesn't mean that a performer's ethnicity must exactly match that of the character and its not discrimination of some sort.