I am a feminist and a sahm

[CountryLifeMummy]

I had a discussion with a male friend who believes I can not be a feminist and a sahm.
Bit of background -
I live in the country with some animals. I have one child. I decided to come out of the workplace to be at home with my child before they started school. They are now at school but as a family we feel we like the lifestyle of a house in the country and animals. Because of our rural location school is a bit of a drive away. I am very busy from morning to evening with the animals / school run / housework / laundry etc. I do realise this is a luxury but we budget well and can afford to have one parent at home.
I love my role in my family and feel very satisfied as a feminist that I am doing what fulfills me on a day to day basis. My husband is happy for me too and there is no resentment. He has to leave early for work and I am happily responsible for ironing his clothes and making us all dinner. He makes dinner at the weekend and will help with house jobs then too.
So, I was discussing feminism with my friend who discribes himself as a feminist - supporter of the This Girl Can campaign and Wimens March etc. He is in a relationship with a career driven person and he is very career driven himself. We get along mostly and I applaud his feminist views, usually.
He said to me that actually, how can I call myself a feminist if I stay at home living out a dated social stereotype serving a man and having no career and therefore no self worth.
I am confused but this and I didn't answer him as I didn't want to argue. By believe is that feminism is the radical notion that Men and Women are equal (actually I believe in full equal rights including children as well). Surly if I am happy in my life and my "work" then that's all that matters? Or do I need to have paid employment to really be a feminist?

Hahaha hilarious. Now I see where I've been going wrong all these years.I should have asked a man to explain what feminism was. Silly little me.

I am a SAHM (how funny that that auto corrected to 'sham' and the next suggested word was marriage! ) and a feminist. It's the right decision for my family and I don't see how having a wage gives somebody any kind of intrinsic 'worth'. It infuriates me actually.

There is absolutely no reason why you can't be a SAHM and a feminist. The value of work done in the home should be far higher than society regards it as, anyway (it probably isn't because it's traditionally associated with women, so seen as counting for less).

I see no reason why any SAHP should be frowned upon. I think it should be just as common or accepted for men to be SAHPs if they wish (as increasing numbers are becoming). The choice must be a free one, not a woman sacrificing her career when she'd rather have continued because of lack of paternity provision, or a belief the man's career takes precedence, or when even though she was earning far more than the man she believes he'll earn more in future as he's a man (all reasons I've seen given). However, when a woman has made a free choice that being a SAHP works best for her, anyone who says you can't be a feminist having exercised that choice is being ridiculous.

At the same time, I think it's vital we also combat sexism in the workplace, outdated assumptions that women should stay at home if they have children and make sure no women are being pressured into it when they don't wish to be.

Also, statistics show that the younger generation actually believe more than those of their parents that women should stay at home if they have children, which is quite worrying.

I don't think it's sad to find worth through your job just as there's nothing wrong with not attaching any worth to a wage. My mum is hugely successful in her work and a fantastic parent in every way. She finds worth through numerous things of which her job is one (her patients regularly tell her how much they think of her). She's a great inspiration to me. Her sister in law used to make lots of jibes about how terrible it was she worked, but luckily my parents never see her now.

I'm also irked that even when both partners in a heterosexual couple work, the woman tends to end up doing most (if not all) of the household work, from what I've read and heard.

I'm really pleased to read this thread. I'm currently a SAHP and there are plenty of times when I've been made to feel less than my working friends. It wasn't my intention to be off with my dd but it's the way that things have developed and I don't have much choice right now. That is a problem with the patriarchal system, caring for my kid isn't.

Last week a twenty something boy in a HSBC call centre told me I was "out of work". I'm an ardent feminist and I'm fucking sick of being told (implicitly or explicitly) that I'm not working.

Women are judged whatever they do (at all times and not least if they become mothers). Women who become SAHPs told they're not working, of no value, even though they're doing vital work, mothers who work told they're letting down their children, "part time mums", uncaring. None of it is good and all is yet more means of judging and criticising women.

Considering that a lot of time, women become stahm because of decidedly unfeminist reasons, I disagree. Until we get to a truly gender-equal society where decisions about childcare aren't made with the assumption that women will automatically be the ones to sacrifice their careers, I do not believe being a stahm equates to feminism.

Women are judged whatever they do

Absolutely true.

I definitely believe you can be a SAHM and a feminist (and used to be one). I also believe you can be a man and a feminist, and it sounds like your friend is supporting some important causes.

I do think that it can be surprisingly easy to gradually slip from "I'm doing this as a choice and I love it" to feelings of lower self-worth. As others have said this is because of the lower value placed by society on SAHM-ing than it should be, which you can start to absorb. So it's good to keep thinking about whether you are happy with your and DH's roles within the family on an ongoing basis.

I am a sahm and I class myself as a feminist.

I did go back to work whilst DS was younger, and I was the higher earner (by quite an amount). Absolutely hated being away from DS, and it got too much after about a year so I quit my job. DP was supportive all the way.

because of decidedly unfeminist reasons,

Which reasons are you referring to, runlogan ?

Feminism gives women the right to choose. We don't want to be men we just want to have the option of having all the rights they have.

There was a thread on here not that long ago in which a poster stated she'd become a SAHM only a few years ago even though she earnt more than her husband, because they decided as a man he'd probably go on to earn more. Also I've read posters saying they felt pressure from their husbands/male partners to stay at home when they had children or "less of a woman" for not (read that this week). We need a society where it's a totally free choice for all women, as it has been for those SAHPs on this thread, and indeed for men.

@sticklebrix. There @NoLoveofMine explained it.

I take all the points above about patriarchy limiting choices and the lack of value our society places on unpaid work.
I find it harder to apply these points to women who do not have paid or unpaid employment outside the home but nonetheless outsource all domestic work (and I know several). That strikes me as a self-infantilisation (and is recognised as such by divorce courts who effectively treat an ex-wife in that position as a dependent child who never grows up).
We overlook, too, the sacrifices the husband of such a woman is making to support her choice (very long hours, punishing commute, having to be available at weekends and on holiday) and to 'provide for his family' - thus lumping wife and children together. This does not strike me as a partnership of equals.
Equally, though, in a situation where the wife returning to work would entail little financial contribution and a great deal of stress, and where she is neither good at domestic tasks nor enjoys them, should she be punished/excoriated for seeking fulfilment in other activities?
I don't know the answer.

I think I'm both.

I am a stay at home Mum becuase I want to be, it was my choice not to return to my business until the dc are older.
I don't rely on dh for money, I've rental properties that provide me with an income.
I don't do all the house work etc, mine and dh relationship is as equal as it's always been.

Thing is in society women will be judged if they stay at home or go to work.

There was also a thread in which numerous posters agreed with the OP that it was important to teach daughters to "marry well" so they could become SAHPs in future, which doesn't strike me as giving them a very equal choice.

I've also heard boys my age state they'd never "let" their wives work "when" they have children in future

I do think you can be a feminist and a SAHM - I also think men can have views on what a feminist is.
The concern that i have is that the SAHM and WOHF model i think causes issues for other women and to a degree reinforce the patriarchy

• the work place stays designed around a model where one person can work all hours/network at will/without worrying about childcare/housework etc- which increasingly makes it difficult for any other model to survive. I'm not sure if it is a capitalist concern but you are supporting someone to leave home early/come home late which makes it hard for someone in that workplace to do other things.

There are layers of things going on.

Firstly, don't ever believe a man who says he's a feminist. Male feminists may exist but I've never met one. My DH comes close to being one, but the fact is that he still has his male privilege and he still defaults to believing that his experience is the 'right' experience. When a man tries to tell you about feminism the only sensible reaction is to laugh in his face.

Secondly, feminism isn't about controlling women's lives. Men do that plenty, thanks. As long as it's lawful and you're not hurting anyone, you can do whatever you please. Feminism is not about policing women's choices, it's about understanding why they make those choices and removing the barriers that prevent them from having a genuine range of choices open to them.

Understanding the difficulties with SAHMing is not about 'right' and 'wrong.' It's about examining why, in a situation where a child has two parents, one of them ends up doing all the caring while the other ends up doing all the out-of-home work. In that situation, both parents lose out - one parent is cut off from being personally and financially independent, the other is cut off from being more involved in the day to day raising of their child. It would make far far more sense for society to acknowledge the fact that between the ages of 20 and 40 a large proportion of the population (both women and men) have children. It is a necessary part of keeping the population going and so should be factored in to the working world so that everyone has a chance to both work and look after children as much as suits them.

What actually happens is that having children is seen as an inconvenience brought about by women that interferes with the Real Work done, mainly, by men. So having children is 'accommodated' in a way that makes it clear to women that actually it's a nuisance and a burden. Hence many women are pushed in to SAHMing.

Because in our society paid work is Real and Important and unpaid caring is 'doing nothing,' SAHMs suffer the automatic penalty of becoming less valued by society. Not only that, but she's put in a very precarious financial situation where she is dependent on her spouse and progressively loses value on the job market year on year.

Having children is treated by society as an inconvenience and the women who dedicate their time to raising children are treated as worthless. This is in spite of the fact that if women said 'fuck it,' fit in with the current working culture and just didn't bother having kids the species would come to an end. The future of the human race literally rides upon women giving birth. And yet, it's treated like an annoying hobby that men have to accommodate.

It's all fucked up. That's the issue with SAHMing. Being a SAHM is a choice, yes, but it's a choice made within a fucked up situation, a choice that could seriously disadvantage you, when it absolutely should not. In fact, raising the next generation is the epitome of valuable, surely? If no one did it, we'd be fucked.

The idea that our self worth is dependant on our job is patriarchy and capitalism in a nutsack.

Ask him what he would do with the rest of his life if he became too disabled to work full time, and therefore had no self worth.

Gotcha logan. Patriarchal pressure rather than the women making an unsisterly choice (which I unfairly read between the lines of your post).

I disagree that becoming a SAHM is always a choice. Although of course it is for many.

He said to me that actually, how can I call myself a feminist if I stay at home living out a dated social stereotype serving a man and having no career and therefore no self worth.

Have you asked him why he assumes self-worth is only available through a career? Why does he value upbringing children so little? Why does he assume you're serving a man more than yourself and your children? Who does the housework in his house?

I live alone, and my standards are not high, but there's still housework to be done, and I suffer if it isn't, as would anyone else if they lived here - someone has to do it, it's noticeable when it isn't done, so therefore it has value.

I assume he has no children, but if he were to do so, who would look after them? Would that work have no value for him?

If he is not doing at least 50% of the work involved in running and maintaining a house and the people who live in it, he's not much of a feminist. Of course we should have as much access to education, employment, promotion and money as men do - but feminism isn't only about that, and if men aren't doing the unpaid work outside of the office as well, then bollocks to them being feminist or even much of an ally.

And yes, you can be a SAHM and a feminist, as long as you thought about it, rather than unquestioningly accepted a traditional role. (Although doing that may later turn you into a feminist.)

I do really struggle with the idea that the working partner is responsible for 50% of running and maintaining the household (where there are school-age children).
On the other hand, cleaning and household admin do my head in.

'I do really struggle with the idea that the working partner is responsible for 50% of running and maintaining the household (where there are school-age children). '

I don't think it's essential that the working partner actually does an equal amount of running and maintaining the household - practically it makes sense for a SAHP to do more. It's about the power dynamic and about a sense of teamwork. In my own experience and from talking to other women who have been SAHMs for a while, it's very easy for the working partner to start to treat the home like a hotel - to see themselves as having no responsibility whatsoever for the house and to treat their SAH partner like a skivvy. I've heard of horrendous situations where the working partner goes to bed with a sniffle but the SAH partner has had to literally crawl around the house, vomiting, because she doesn't ever get time off no matter how sick she is.