Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

XX people having their own gaming tournament? This will not do!

67 replies

coleridge · 05/05/2017 21:28

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-women-barred-from-gaming-tournament?utm_term=.dxXk1oYpM#.ngleaLmZg

Trans women want to attend a female-only gaming tournament, tournament organisers are horrendous awful bigots for wanting them to confirm their legal gender in an attempt to protect the tournament from getting trolled by men.

I love gaming and always have and while there are some fantastic men who love it when someone else shares their hobby, far too many male gamers are extremely hostile to female gamers.

These trans women were not told they were not women or could not attend, the organisers just wanted to be clear that they had taken the steps to change their legal gender. How horrible, how bigoted.

Glad to see some in the comments have sense.

OP posts:
RogueBiscuit · 06/05/2017 13:45

Fuck outta here. I'm a student nurse. The healthcare community is on board, so don't give me the genetics argument. Some of my female patients need to have their prostates examined. Some of my male patients need pap smears. Get over it

The thought of men going to have a smear test makes me want to puke. They don't have a cervix ffs.

Datun · 06/05/2017 13:50

OlennasWimple

In terms of verifying whether you are of age, I agree.

In terms of checking whether you are a woman or not, it's only an issue because of transactivism. And it's a lose/lose.

To preserve women's spaces, organisers are going to have to do this. And it will be used as a massive stick.

We've ready had posters on MN saying what next, are you going to to ask everyone for their ID?!

The fact that there is gatekeeping going on will be seen as discriminatory, despite it being for everyone.

The goalposts will be moved. I guarantee it.

Datun · 06/05/2017 13:51

RogueBiscuit

They will be referring to transmen.

BigDeskBob · 06/05/2017 14:33

Its all very clever. Even if the organiser's could stomach it, and adverse it as a tournament for 'cis women', they would be attacked. Making something exclusive for 'cis' is akin to making it exclusively for white, middle-class, beautiful women.

Without do anything to mtt, women are now the oppressors.

patodp · 06/05/2017 14:36

And LOL at "the healthcare community is on board". My friend is head over sexual health at Barts.

They do NOT refer to "men" coming in for cervical swabs, nor do they refer to "women" having their testes examined. This is simply not true. They may if necessary refer to a transman or transwomen to make all communications abundantly clear.

A Transman may need a cervical smears, yes. Never in a million years will a man need one.

OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 14:52

One of the head honchos involved in the tournament is being pretty active on social media right now - eg reddit and he is clear that ID was requested from all participants, not just the team in question.

so it basically comes down to the "I am a woman because I say I am, even though I don't mean any objective criteria to prove to you that I am a woman" argument. Which is completely undermined by the "transwomen face more persecution and violence than women" argument, because surely most transwomen would be arguing for some gate-keeping to these protected spaces that allows them in but keeps out the men who wish them harm....?

BigDeskBob · 06/05/2017 15:01

This is an interesting quote "There is no single form of verification that is wholly inclusive, so verification shouldn't be required. Why should we have to justify ourselves to you?". In other words - women are not allowed to have women only events.

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:07

Exaxtly bob. Here we are pretty used to the nonsensical arguments employed to make people think that sex doesn't exist.

I do hope that eventually it's not just feminists who see through all this. That women everywhere will have a sense of unity.

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:15

OlennasWimple

That Reddit link is infuriating. The organisers bending over backwards to appear inclusive, whilst definitely wanting to keep a female only tournament.

I don't know whether they truly want to keep transwomen out, or whether they think that the few who are legal will make little difference.

But they are being tied up in knots arguing over something that is in entirely legitimate under the current rules. Being forced to deal with a cultural expectation that has no basis in law.

When the law is completely wrong.

The basis for excluding transwomen should be because they are men not because they're not legally women.

The reasons for wanting a woman only space is because men take over and become sexist. It doesn't bloody matter how they identify, they will still do that.

OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 15:23

I know, Datun

To be fair to these organisers (and others trying to set up similar international events), I don't know what they could reasonably do except ask for ID that demonstrates that someone is deemed by the law in the country issuing the ID to be female.

This is another reason why self-identification is a terrible idea - it raises expectations that everyone will fall into line with the "I am because I say I am" approach, when patently that is not going to happen in all circumstances.

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:24

I actually came here looking for constructive dialogue to take back to the League organizers and am a bit shocked at the hostility. I didn't have anything to do with the initial decision or our League operations but since I have many LBGT friends and even family and care about the topic I thought I'd open dialogue and explain the background, given no one I work with actually think like the article is trying to portray the situation.

Yeah, he thought he could have a reasonable dialogue. Instead of being called transphobic and "degrading, invalidating and offensive".

Datun · 06/05/2017 15:25

Sadly, I think he will go away and get everyone to re-write their policy to include men.

BigDeskBob · 06/05/2017 15:27

There is also a thread on reddit asktrans, too.

You are right, OlennasWimple. They seem to forget all of the abuse they face when demanding unfettered use of women's spaces. Aren't the organisers trying to keep the MTT safe too?

Although I doubt many if these MTT ever leave their bedrooms.

MaisyPops · 07/05/2017 16:04

No event should be for cis women only
That's where you lose me. It's not a question being cis.

  1. There are biological women.
2.There are trans women who have transitioned, have female characteristics and have changed their legal gender (still have male chromosomes but I can accept them as women as long as they aren't physically advantaged by being biologically male Eg sporting events)
  1. There are people who identify as being transgender and just get on with it. Again zero issues here
  2. There are people who identify as being transgender and think they have the right to define what it is to be a woman because "I say I'm a woman and I like wearing dresses so you hitches better let me into all your female spaces because I'm going to kick off if you dont".

Let's guess which category of people seem to have the biggest mouth and the least to complain about! Oh yes, the last group.

If being classed as a trans woman was enough of a priority on their agenda they'd have proof, transition, get legal status etc. But bottom line is the people in the situation above don't want that. They just want their own way all the time and cry if challenged.

VestalVirgin · 07/05/2017 17:09

No event should be for cis women only

Eh, I'd be okay with including transmen (you know, those "men" who have XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs)

But that'd not spare them the anger of transwacktivists. Because it is not about including trans. It is about including males.

patodp · 07/05/2017 17:23

Vestal that's a very interesting point.

So Transmen, who still have "female" on their ID would be fine, but I can only assume transmen would rather kill themselves than be included in a "women only" event, because this would trigger their dysphoria.
They would not want women to include them.

Childrenofthestones · 07/05/2017 22:08

"If transwomen are so keen on their opportunity to shine, they could always organise a transwomen gaming contest all of their own..."

Wehey, you'll have to remember that one when the next all male golf club come under the cosh.

"If golfwomen are so keen on their opportunity to shine, they could always organise a golfwomen gaming contest all of their own..."

OlennasWimple · 07/05/2017 22:15

Well, unless the "women only" event was a mammogram clinic or a smear clinic - transmen still need these unless they have had full surgery top and bottom

PoochSmooch · 08/05/2017 07:09

www.blokefest.net/

It's interesting to compare the event in the op with this hideously transphobic event, Blokefest, which is unashamedly ONLY FOR MEN AND BOYS! Not cis men only. Just men, no qualifier. No apologies, no "open to anyone who identifies as a man", no hysterical tirades on social media (AFAIK) about how trans men are excluded and oppressed by the existence of this event.

It's only women's events which need to be inclusive. It's only women who need to be told who we are and what we can do. It's only gatherings of women together that are dangerous and oppressive to trans people.

Meh, this shit it getting tiring.

MaisyPops · 08/05/2017 07:14

pooch Because it's rare you see trans men kicking off the same way some trans women do. Even then, it's rarely trans women who've gone through legal change of gender and surgery. It's almost always trans women in their 20s/30s who are biologically male with no intention of having surgery.

Bambambini · 08/05/2017 07:27

The comments were nuts. That Josiah guy is really up himself. No fucking self awareness that he's being a mysoginstc prat to the highest degree.

Datun · 08/05/2017 08:45

PoochSmooch

Can you imagine an event called 'ChickFest'?

"For the glorious sixth year running on one weekend in June we will be singing like chicks, acting like women and getting to be one of the gals."

There would be positively legions of transwomen lining up to get in and take over.

They would be trying to take it over and shut it down at the same time.

Michfest anyone?

PoochSmooch · 08/05/2017 10:06

I know, Datun. Chickfest would be catnip for the transactivists, just like Michfest was. I will eat my hat if Blokefest gets even the mildest whiff of scolding.

Gallavich · 08/05/2017 10:26

The nurse above talking about male patients getting Pap smears is referring to trans identifying females - so totally not male patients in any respect of the meaning of the word male. Extraordinary that a nurse performing check ups on people's primary and secondary sexual organs believes that people with cervixes are male and people with prostates are female Hmm

nauticant · 08/05/2017 12:05

"If golfwomen are so keen on their opportunity to shine, they could always organise a golfwomen gaming contest all of their own..."

And thus, a new gender is born, the golfwoman.