My Daughter is Not Transgender. She's a Tomboy.

[sticklebrix]

Article in the New York Times yesterday. It illustrates the outside pressure to trans that some perfectly healthy children experience.

I wonder what sort of response this article would get in the UK. Would it be seen as controversial?

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/opinion/my-daughter-is-not-transgender-shes-a-tomboy.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Blimey greenwool, that sounds tough. I know there are a few people on here in the same situation - I hope some of them see this. Despite the (unwarranted, IMO) reputation this board might have , I know that a few parents of kids with gender issues have found this a supportive place.

^^ I mean, I hope they see this and can offer some support to you. If you need it, of course.

in my view it's to do with trans having become a 'thing' so that people with an inchoate malaise which broadly maps onto the trans narrative are able to latch onto and identify with it in a way which feels natural and instinctive to them

they then start to feel as if they were 'born in the wrong body'
a nonsensical idea which none the less is very powerful because it engages peoples emotions and serves to legitimize and promote the idea that the solution to the malaise is to transfer yourself into the right body

Thanks. I'm not sure what's gong on but she has a 2 yr history of self harm and low self esteem. I worry that this might be taken as additional 'evidence' in this climate, and that trans might be assumed to be the reason.

But I know dd - she's 15 - and it just seems wrong to say she's trans. I have a few FTM friends and have always respected their pronouns but don't for a moment believe them to be men. But dd has never even come across in the way they do. At least, she didn't, before adopting the clothes, haircut and swagger that she has recently taken up. (The only thing she's kept is the boyfriend.) I don't even mind or criticise that - she can express herself as she wishes, boxer shorts and all. But I WILL NOT accept that she's suddenly a boy in the wrong body, and for that she is vilifying me online, calling me her 'abuser' to a chorus of affirmation.

My take on it? Attention, a big dose of teenage narcissism and a weak sense of self. At other times she has claimed to be diagnosed with autism, PTSD due to 'violent events' and chronic fatigue syndrome, none of which are true. She steals other people's art work and passes it off as her own. She has serious MH issues (with no obvious cause) and if 'trans' is leapt upon as the 'cause' then I don't know what we'll do. So far she says she hasn't mentioned it to CAMHS, but I can't believe a word she says tbh.

greenwool

I see exactly where you are coming from.
Both me and my dd seem to have been the same, I would try and be as much like a boy as I could, I used to say I wish I was a boy and dd likewise.
It was normal and lots of girls go through this, I blame George from Famous 5
It must be difficult when your child believes they are in the wrong body, and I think a clear distinction needs to be made between normal tom boy behaviour and a child wanting to transgender.
I don't think tom boys are unhappy, I think those wanting to transgender must be confused and unhappy, my heart goes out to them.

Oh greenwool. Nightmare. I don't want to panic you, but she sounds like a ripe candidate for transactivists to target. From what you have said, I don't think she is trans, but she could get sucked in.

It's great that she has a boyfriend because that would mean less time spent on line getting affirmation of every thought that enters her head.

And, for what it's worth most children who are trans will have gender dysphoria, and it sounds like she doesn't, or are gay, and it sounds like she isn't. So nowhere near trans.

I think your analysis is spot on.

When I was growing up parents could send their kids to things like a kibbutz for a spot of altruistic helping out and real-life perspective.

Is there anything like that around now? I can't help thinking that a break from social media and the pressures that entails would be really good for our teens.

Thanks for the support :). We live very rurally and for once in my life I'm slightly grateful that attitudes here are a little behind the times. (Maybe I'm becoming Uncle Jack as well.) The continuing existence of the boyfriend is something at least, although she mostly does have to chat to him online outside of school as his family live in another part of nowhere. However, she says she's 'pansexual' rather than straight, so if he were off the scene I'm not sure what way things would go. As for the trans targeting, we already have to monitor her online activity - I know that's heavily frowned upon on MN - to keep her safe, after she advertised herself online as a regressing 'baby' looking for a 'carer' to look after her.

I'm hoping to God that she moves on to the next thing before too much damage is done, although another part of me is terrified of what the next thing might be.

Hmmm. I would say a teen saying they are pansexual is certainly considering homosexuality.

As for the baby and carer. That's worrying. Smacks of insecurity and fear of the responsibilities of being a grown-up.

We can tell our kids how wonderful they are, how well they're doing and often it just falls on deaf ears. Because real self-worth doesn't work like that.

There is obviously a certain amount of self-worth to be derived from achievements, qualifications, etc.

But in my experience, particularly with younger people, self worth is derived through the value that people place on you, genuine, real value. Not just love.

That's why I think it's useful to find something for our teens to do in order to gain that. Volunteering comes to mind. Helping out with a playgroup. Brownies.

I know it's hard enough to get teens out of bed, much less convince them to go and help someone.

My kids would drag their heels when I took them to the care home to see my mother. Mumbling, muttering, staring at their feet.

Afterwards, they were lighter, happier, chatty. Talking about grandma this and grandma that. Commiserating over the food, the decor. Engaged.

I'm not saying they had a wonderful time. But they felt good about what they had done.

Totally agree Datun . I just think back to when I was a teen (in the distant 70's) and this kind of thing just wouldn't have occurred to teenagers. We were too busy and had too much responsibility for this level of introspection. Its worth remembering that young parents today were often teenagers in the 90's when the whole emo thing was going on. I personally see a divide between older parents and younger parents on issues like this.

Yes, she's definitely happier when she gets out of bed and does something. Unfortunately her social anxiety is so bad that she refuses to take part in any of that type of activity. My mother (88) has a brain injury and barely tolerates me going round. She hardly ever wants to see the dds, and when they do go round she seems to take pleasure in ridiculing me in front of them, so that they both said they'd refuse to go anyway. Until recently we had a good relationship, and I was able to bring her out of herself by spending lots of time with her, asking her to help in the garden, etc. Sadly, since I morphed into a hateful abusive TERF bigot she has wanted much less to do with me.

But I agree that less introspection is what is sorely needed, for dd and so many others like her. They have taken gender - a huge social/political issue - and internalised it, making it all about their own special personal identity. If I hadn't found this board I'd have been in complete despair.

Sending to you Greenwool. I am in a similar situation with dd (but without the self-harm history, thank god). Am trying desperately to avoid Camhs. Glad you have found this place helpful. Its difficult to find support as a transcritical parent. So many parents naively contact Mermaids thinking they are doing the right thing, but then only get spun one story. Its definitely important to stay questioning and open to all narratives. You probably have found resources to help you already, but if not DM me and I can send you some links.

I heard on radio 4 (must be true!) that 80% of children who 'present' to specialist doctors as transgender go on to be happy not to transition- some are gay, some not.

That means if your child says I want to be a boy/girl then the overwhelming liklihood is that they will be fine as they are and not want any treatment.

greenwool I know for you this is an un-looked for situation and is completely breaking new ground. But honestly, from what you have said, you are absolutely on it. As much as anyone can possibly be.

A good dose of common sense and a down-to-earth attitude is crucial.

Its awful when your kids bellyache about you to their friends. You want to start every sentence with after all I've done for you.

I think the only consolation is that every parent and teen has had that conversation since time began.

You've probably done this, but deliberately showing a little vulnerability sometimes helps.

But that would have to depend on their willingness to engage, not your Machiavellian tactics.

I can't remember the science, but it's quite well-known teenagers have a very strong sense of ego, and what they want. It's the way that brains are structured and not yet mature. They find it almost impossible to put themselves in another's position. Whilst as adults, we do it automatically - to whatever degree.

So sometimes saying out loud why something is hurting you can be effective. To an adult it sounds like an over-reaction, but to a teenager it can be a revelation. Because they just don't see it.

I don't mean in the middle of an argument, or in an accusatory way, I mean when the mood is as serene and companiable as it ever gets.

Very much appreciated, everyone, and sorry for derailing the thread! I'll probably start one of my own when I can bring myself to. This board is a Godsend .

Best of luck greenwool. I didn't mean to come across as minimising your daughter's difficulties in my post. I am aware that some children have genuine problems and need help and support.

I played football and cricket and with toy cars, loved trains, rode my bike, and loved pink, princesses, fairies and all that too. I never felt there was anything I couldn't do as a girl.

I'm not sure why the author was pleased her daughter likes "boy's stuff" and not "princesses". To me it was all equal. Feminism is not about denigrating traditionally feminine stuff, afaic. I'm glad my daughters like a wide range of things too. I don't get the comment about men's and women's sports either. Doing sport separately from men benefits women.

Greenwool Much sympathy for what you're going through, and respect for the way you're handling it. I have a friend dealing with a very similar situation with her daughter, and it's a nightmare. I suspect teenagers have always tended towards introspection, but social media is magnifying and reflecting that narcissism in new and worrying ways.

It's fascinating how many of us went through phases of wanting to be boys as children. Mine was aged about 9. I insisted on being called Bob , and my two best (girl) friends became Sam and Tom for a few months. I'm very grateful my parents' response was just to roll their eyes and let me get on with it.

For all that I said above, I hardly wore trousers until the age of 11. I absolutely loathed the idea that someone might think I was a boy even for a second. I was so absolutely proud of being a girl, was convinced that girls were better than boys, and felt a bit sorry for boys with their lack of access to pink sparkly things, boring clothes and not being allowed to play with dolls.

herethereandeverywhere

One of my DC had a similar phase at a slightly younger age than your DD. I did correct them matter of factly about their sex, but remember worrying at the time about whether this was the right approach.

With my DC the phase passed and they are quite happy in and unconfused about their sex. I think it's important to be honest with children. It is simply not possible to change the sex of our bodies. But everything else is theirs to claim when it comes to personality, appearance, interests, relationships etc.

With strangers, I might be tempted to say nothing at the time but afterwards something like, 'That man thought that you are a boy, didn't he? How strange! Maybe he doesn't know that lots of girls wear clothes like yours'

greenwool.

However, she says she's 'pansexual' rather than straight, so if he were off the scene I'm not sure what way things would go.

Her sexual orientation is your smallest problem here.

Though I think she's probably straight. If you are attracted to males who identify as non-binary , according to the genderist logic, that automatically makes you pansexual, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Oh, certainly I have no concern about who she brings home, as long as they're good to her.

Interesting Elkgirl you sound just like me as a girl. I never felt there was anything I could not do as a girl . I did think girls were better than boys.

Unlike you I hated sport but I felt sorry for the boys who hated it as it was far harder to be a boy who didn't like sport than a girl.

I do think the author of that piece for all her " hey, I'm so unconventional and open minded " stance has some terribly narrow ideas.

When I was young I was desperate to be a boy, I wanted to be able to piss standing up so badly. Whenever I played role playing games I was always annoy. Somehow i convinced myself I would grow a penis so when my mum presented me with a bra at 12 because I'd grown breasts instead I was utterly devastated. Lots of tears.
I imagine if I was growing up in Brighton today I'd be transitioning!
I'm very happy as a woman now, I'm not a particularly feminine woman but I wouldn't want to be a man. So it does make me wonder. . . .