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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My Daughter is Not Transgender. She's a Tomboy.

100 replies

sticklebrix · 19/04/2017 16:38

Article in the New York Times yesterday. It illustrates the outside pressure to trans that some perfectly healthy children experience.

I wonder what sort of response this article would get in the UK. Would it be seen as controversial?

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/opinion/my-daughter-is-not-transgender-shes-a-tomboy.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

OP posts:
NotCarylChurchill · 23/04/2017 23:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

paddypants13 · 24/04/2017 21:11

I worry for my four year old dd. She says she wants to be a boy, likes more masculine clothes, has short hair and plays with "boys" toys. I live in fear of some nutter telling her she's trans. Sometimes she chooses things because they are supposed to be for boys but actually she wants the "girlier" things. I have to explain to her that doesn't have to like one thing or the other, she can like lots of things.

Stop medicalising and radicalising childhood! Let kids be kids.

herethereandeverywhere · 24/04/2017 21:37

So when my daughter tells me she wants to be a daddy, not a mummy and describes herself as a 'handsome young man' when eating her new clothes and doesn't correct strangers who refer to her as 'little lad' or similar, am I supposed to intervene and say "no, you are [she is] a girl" or ignore it or what? Do I play along or do I say "you are a girl so you can't be a daddy but you can be a mummy"?

It's been going on for 18 months so far, she's 5. I'm not a parent who is interested in having a trans kid because it's trendy, I certainly don't want to push her towards society's constructs of 'girl' and I would never expose her to any sort of medical treatment to 'address' this. I just want her to be happy and I don't want my handling or mishandling of this to adversely affect her later life either.

noeffingidea · 25/04/2017 07:19

herethere I wouln't make a big thing of it.It's posible that she wants to be like a beloved male (I'm assuming her Dad?) rather than actually feeling she is male herself. It's just a kind of hero worship.

IMO this is often what lies at the root of non gender conforming amongst young children. It really isn't a new thing.

Lenilarch11 · 25/04/2017 09:04

The thing is the author of that post has admitted in a previous article that her daughter has told her that they are a boy and wants to be a boy, so this article isn'the the full picture at all.

noeffingidea · 25/04/2017 10:21

lenilarch very young children say things like that all the time. It usually means ... absolutely nothing. Very young children don't understand such a complex issue, They are just role playing.

Datun · 25/04/2017 10:44

Maybe your kid is cis! But can you not see the STIGMA caused when you yell "STOP ASKING IF SHE'S TRANS" like that's a bad thing?

Is being trans so prevalent now, that it is the first, default option of a girl not wanting to dress as a princess?

herethereandeverywhere · 25/04/2017 10:49

Datun describing the traits of either my child or the one in the article as merely 'not wanting to dress like a princess' is wilfully avoiding the issue though. If that was all it was there would be little cause for comment.

I don't even know if 'trans' is an actual thing but railroading every kid in to the 'just wants to wear practical clothes' camp is just avoiding the issue, whatever the issue actually is (major, minor, of little consequence, huge problem for the future I just don't know).

DJBaggySmalls · 25/04/2017 10:59

herethereandeverywhere

Your daughter is going through a stage. You dont have to be harsh or insistent. You do have to stick to the facts.
You cannot hurt your child by telling her she is a girl any more than you would if she insisted she wanted to grow up to be a dog or a pony.
She is experimenting, thats all. Most kids do it. It one way they learn empathy and social behaviours, by roleplaying from the other persons POV. Lots of girls decide they want to be a boy,. By the time we pass through puberty we realise we've been sold a crock about pink princesses and passivity, and can just be ourselves.

Datun · 25/04/2017 11:08

herethereandeverywhere

Yes I know, and I didn't mean to minimise your experience. But there is no doubt that people are looking balefully at their children and wondering, on the flimsiest of reasons.

I'm not suggesting for a single second that is what is happening to you.

The contrary, I personally believe that there is a kernel of truth to transgenderism.

The problem for a parent, such as youself, is sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Statistically, if a child identifying with the opposite sex is left alone they will grow out of it. Whether that is because it is just a phase, like many children, or something more profound, it is often self-limiting.

It's a very difficult question, because no one wants to see a child in distress. One thing I wouldn't do is let a child think it is possible to change sex.

Don't come down hard on her choices, be very affirming about girls and what they can do (anything). Don't pay it too much attention.

Can you hook her up with another girl on a play date who could be a role model? Who shares her interests, but is unequivocally female?

People are critical of the trans-ideology because the collateral damage is severe. Gender stereotyping, women's rights, etc.

But it also has taken the focus away from gender nonconforming children, or teenagers with gender dysphoria.

Don't panic and be patient. A loving, supportive environment will go a massively long way to ensuring the happiness of your child.

The wait and see approach is advocated by a lot of gender experts, precisely because this is very common.

Flowers
Datun · 25/04/2017 11:17

herethereandeverywhere

I will add, that very many women on here have said they would have been considered trans when they were children. And not just the ones who liked climbing trees and kicking a ball.

Women have said they insisted on presenting as a boy for years. All now happy adult females.

And still rejecting gender stereotypes.

MariafromMalmo · 25/04/2017 11:31

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 25/04/2017 11:38

A tomboy is a girl who knows she's a girl, has no gender dysphoria, but just likes doing boy stuff. And has no trouble acknowledging her sex.

A trans-boy is a girl who identifies with and as a boy. They think their sex is wrong. And, I believe the extra criteria is this needs to be very distressing to the individual. So believing you are a boy but not being distressed by it is generally not considered criteria for trans.

The overlap between these two is how you interpret the behaviour. Because a lot of behaviour can be attributed to either.

peaceout · 25/04/2017 11:47

I actually don't understand the difference between a tomboy and a trans boy?
Really?
Really??
Hmm

CoteDAzur · 25/04/2017 11:52

"when you yell "STOP ASKING IF SHE'S TRANS" like that's a bad thing?"

Well it's not exactly a good thing to have such profound problems with your body that you would want to cut out large chunks of it and hormonally castrate yourself, is it?

CoteDAzur · 25/04/2017 11:54

"am I supposed to intervene and say "no, you are [she is] a girl"...? do I say "you are a girl so you can't be a daddy but you can be a mummy"?"

Yes, to both. That is what I would do.

Of course you want your child to be happy but a large part of happiness in life is about expectation management. In your place, I would get a book about human anatomy written for children, with diagrams and pictures. (My DC had one, they were fascinated with it). Go over it with her and explain why she is a girl and why that means she will be a mummy, not a daddy.

Delphinium19 · 25/04/2017 11:57

Exactly. Like gender dysphoria is a good thing? Baffled

PoochSmooch · 25/04/2017 11:57

Flowers herethere

The way I look at it is that children breach gender roles all of the time. All of them. Some do it more than others. Some will have dysphoria, and will not be able to help how extremely they breach gender roles and rules. But most of the time it's quite normal -we learn the rules of adult society by breaking them, and being corrected (or not). We have so many rules around gendered behaviour, that honestly it would be surprising if a child didn't get them wrong, or believe that they've been miscategorised.

My issue with the trans narrative of "born in the wrong body" is that it takes this extremely normal childhood behaviour and pathologises it. And it's done with an agenda - adults identifying as transgendered will look back on their normal childhood breaches as significant, and will magnify them to help explain their adult feelings and drivers. Due to their difficulties as adults, they'll wish that they had got help earlier, transistioned sooner, be recognised earlier as the gender they wish to identify as...

The problem with the current situation is that it is prioritising what should be the treatment path of the small proportion of adults who could benefit from being helped earlier with their gender issues, and applying it wholesale to the whole population, when the evidence tells us that the majority of gender non conforming children should absolutely be left alone to grow out of it - something in the order of 80% of them will desist around puberty.

We need to normalise childhood gender non conformity, not pathologise it.

Datun · 25/04/2017 12:00

Today 11:57 Delphinium19

Exactly. Like gender dysphoria is a good thing? Baffled

Well exactly. A crippling neurological condition has been remarketed as being 'your authentic self'.

peaceout · 25/04/2017 12:05

born in the wrong body
The phrase doesn't even made sense, unless you think there is some being who oversees which personalities are allocated to which bodies and this being has started making mistakes lately

MariafromMalmo · 25/04/2017 12:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gillybeanz · 25/04/2017 12:08

Until about 13 I wanted to be a boy, I dressed like a boy, played with boys and was a right tom boy. I've never suited dresses or been into pink or dolls, make up jewelry etc.
I am all woman, but I agree with pp in that had you asked me as a child/ early teen I'd have chosen to be considered as a boy, definitely.
Boys had more fun and weren't bitchy, they weren't into crooning over the latest pin up, or pampering sessions.

My dd is 13 and exactly like I was, this week she's been climbing trees, playing football, rugby, and in the adventure playground.
She will discuss hair makeup and style to a certain degree with her more feminine friends, but only up to a point.

greenwool · 25/04/2017 12:12

I have two teenage girls, who were very different as children.

The muddy, football-kicking, tree-climbing one who referred to herself as a 'dude' is now 18 and - whilst she never wears makeup and is happiest in jeans - is fully and happily a woman. The pink fluffy princess, after discovering YouTube and Tumblr, has suddenly announced that she's a trans boy. It's a fucking nightmare.

greenwool · 25/04/2017 12:16

My point being that, if we'd been that way inclined, in stereotypical terms we'd have transed the wrong one. (They're both the wrong one but ykwim.)

Datun · 25/04/2017 12:22

Bloody hell greenwool. What is going on? I'm all for kids, rejecting harmful stereotypes but movement is insidious!

Parents saying their kids have come out as trans is almost a weekly occurrence on here. And it's mostly girls.

What's your take on it? Do you think it's a rejection of her previous embracing of stereotypical gender roles? Or something more?