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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

676 replies

MrsTerryPratchett · 13/04/2017 20:56

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour Grin

OP posts:
Datun · 14/04/2017 13:01

Prostitutes are a minority. There are roughly 50/50 men and women in this country.

Prostitution harms all women. The idea that men are so entitled to sex that they can fuck someone they don't know for the price of a McDonald's is a harmful concept.

Criminalise punters. Raise boys to understand sex is a privilege not a right. Tackle pornography.

Datun · 14/04/2017 13:15

user1492155021

Instead of just asking feminists opinion about prostitution in general, if you want the more detailed, nuanced argument about the effect of the sex trade, there are dozens of threads on mumsnet devoted to it. Just search for those.

They include all the stats of all the different models.

But 'men have needs' isn't generally thought to be a good suggestion for promoting prostitution.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/04/2017 13:18

This is why people don't like feminists: your incapable of having a calm, logical debate

I'm not a feminist. I've said so many times but the person making ludicrous, illogical arguments is not the other posters, who almost certainly say they are feminists.

Any half decent person would see that prostitution damages society.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/04/2017 13:20

Prostitution harms all women. The idea that men are so entitled to sex that they can fuck someone they don't know for the price of a McDonald's is a harmful concept

Why is that so difficult to understand? One doesn't need to be a feminist or even female to grasp that point.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 13:34

That was you question, we answered it but you didnt like the answers and went all over the place.

You didn't understand it. The question was "do you oppose prostitution because it's harmful or because it's immoral". You decided on the latter and couldn't explain why prostitution is wrong even if it doesn't hurt anyone.

What at the same time you have tried to justify it on the basis that men will be men.

Explaining why something happens isn't justifying something. And I didn't say that - Men who sleep with prostitutes are a minority.

Punish the punters. On the spot thousand pound fines.

We've already discussed how this can make life more dangerous for prostitutes. It's not a solution.

You're all too emotionally invested in your opinions. You're incapable of being objective and analysing the situation.

My personal conclusion is that prostitution shouldn't be criminalised, or the punters fined/imprisoned. I think it's the lesser of two evils to legalise and regulate prostitution. My only concern would be sex tourism and trafficked women - perhaps it would work if only UK residents could become prostitutes/punters.

As for society, prostitution isn't why men objectify women. Watch a music video, women are treated like cars and gold chains - status symbols. Empathy is the only way to end the gender war, help men see things from a woman's perspective (and try and see it from their's). Are men who sleep with prostitutes evil? Or do they have mental health problems and/or lack social skills?

People enjoy being angry way too much. We all want our two minutes hate. Don't make your ideology such a big part of who you are, it's just opinions. Opinions can be wrong.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/04/2017 13:41

You didn't understand it. The question was "do you oppose prostitution because it's harmful or because it's immoral". You decided on the latter and couldn't explain why prostitution is wrong even if it doesn't hurt anyone

You have failed to understand anything said here. Prostitution is immoral because it is harmful.

GuardianLions · 14/04/2017 13:48

user
The question was "do you oppose prostitution because it's harmful or because it's immoral". You decided on the latter and couldn't explain why prostitution is wrong even if it doesn't hurt anyone

Lets break this down:
The question was "do you oppose prostitution because it's harmful or because it's immoral". You decided on the latter
I don't think anyone said it was the morality that was the problem, but the harm. So I imagine that you must mean the former rather than the latter.
and couldn't explain why prostitution is wrong even if it doesn't hurt anyone
If the harm is the problem, then it is strange to ask a hypothetical and completely meaningless question "If there's no harm, what's the harm?"

ChocChocPorridge · 14/04/2017 13:48

Have you read either of the articles I responded to yours with?

How German super brothels, and caravans at the side of the road in any way is the lesser of two evils I really don't know.

Or how about the actual reports made to the Swedish parliament to review whether it was working, rather than a HuffPo article on it? They seemed to think that it was a success, and that punishments should actually be harsher.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 13:50

Nope, and murder being illegal doesn't stop murder. It does however make it clear to society that murdering is harmful, and you shouldn't do it.

Murder is different. The victim doesn't want to be murdered. How will you enforce laws against prostitution? Who will call the police, the punter or the prostitute?

The nature of "victim-less crimes" (I know you don't think it's victim-less) is that they're practically impossible to prevent. This is why the war on drugs has failed and harmed so many drug users.

It models the society we would like, even if the reality is that some people still murder.

But we can't live in a dream, aspiring to create a utopia. We have to face reality. There's no place for idealism in politics.

If it was universally accepted that prostitution was harmful to women/society there wouldn't be countries like the Netherlands where it was legal. Obviously some communities have calculated that it's less harmful to legalise and regulate than criminalise.

In the UK prostitution is legal, accept that the majority of people disagree with you.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 13:51

Why yes, User, I DO understand utilitarianism and ethics. Which bit would you like explained to you as you so patently don't?

No one has been rude to you, no one has thrown "hissy fits", and you are saying those things because you are having your arse handed to you. You have been shown to be incorrect many times, so you simply ignore those points and raise other ones, although I have to say that your use of logical fallacies is impressive, we rarely see quite so many in such a short space of time!

Lass, who is fundamentally not a feminist, has it right here when she says:

Prostitution is immoral because it is harmful.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 13:53

You have failed to understand anything said here. Prostitution is immoral because it is harmful.

Then it's not immoral when it doesn't cause harm? Like when the prostitute is happy with her job? Jesus, make your mind up...

I don't think anyone said it was the morality that was the problem, but the harm. So I imagine that you must mean the former rather than the latter.

I gave an example about men having sex with robot prostitutes. This was opposed as (although harmless) they looked like women.

ChocChocPorridge · 14/04/2017 13:53

If it was universally accepted that prostitution was harmful to women/society there wouldn't be countries like the Netherlands where it was legal

And if you had read anything about this, they are regretting that and looking at the Nordic Model themselves.

How about the organ donation then, as I asked at the beginning. People should be allowed to buy organs from other people who want to sell them right?

ChocChocPorridge · 14/04/2017 13:55

Then it's not immoral when it doesn't cause harm? Like when the prostitute is happy with her job? Jesus, make your mind up...

Just because one person is happy, doesn't mean that all people are - prostitution harms women. Just because one person takes cocaine occasionally and holds down a job and a happy life, doesn't meant that we should make cocaine legal, as it harms a great many more people who take it.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 14:01

There's no place for idealism in politics?

MLK, Bevan, Lincoln, Attlee, Wilberforce and many more would probably disagree with you.

And the drug trade is victimless? How utterly ignorant of the drug trade and the way it destroys entire communities and countries.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/04/2017 14:02

If it was universally accepted that prostitution was harmful to women/society there wouldn't be countries like the Netherlands where it was legal

You clearly know very little about what you are talking about. Prostitution is legal in most countries.

The Netherlands has a system of legal brothels and red light areas. My understanding is currently thinking is it is a mistake and local authorities are seeking to reduce the extent of punters' playgrounds.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 14:02

You have been shown to be incorrect many times

When? You must have some serious cognitive bias going on to think that.

Prostitution is immoral because it is harmful.

So that's your maxim? Something is immoral if it's harmful? Smoking should be illegal? Eating too many doughnuts is immoral?

Morality is subjective, it's not the basis for law. Remember when homosexuality was immoral and therefore illegal? We don't live in that sort of society any more, we're progressive.

DJBaggySmalls · 14/04/2017 14:12

You dont seem to be aware of the difference of causing yourself harm, and harming others.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 14:13

Yes Lass, the same thinking is happening in Germany as well where they have the same problems of enormous levels of trafficking of younger and younger girls in order to satisfy the demand for them.

User, I have no cognitive bias, but I do enjoy your incorrect use of buzz words.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 14:14

And morality is the basis for law. Always has been.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 14:16

And if you had read anything about this, they are regretting that and looking at the Nordic Model themselves.

Then why haven't they re-criminalised it? There are lots of places where prostitution is legal, Nevada in the USA for example. So what if one country reverses their policy - things change, it doesn't mean it's applicable to all countries.

How about the organ donation then, as I asked at the beginning. People should be allowed to buy organs from other people who want to sell them right?

A libertarian would say yes. Someone else would say no. I think you were right that it would result in exploitation and therefore shouldn't be permitted, or at least heavily regulated.

Just because one person is happy, doesn't mean that all people are - prostitution harms women. Just because one person takes cocaine occasionally and holds down a job and a happy life, doesn't meant that we should make cocaine legal, as it harms a great many more people who take it.

So it comes down to numbers, like I said - utilitarianism. Now reverse it and pretend that only a minority of women are harmed, should it still be illegal? Alcohol creates alcoholics, but they're a minority so we don't criminalise alcohol. If we did we'd see another Al Capone bootlegging it. So now we have to decide if it's more harmful to prohibit prostitution or permit it.

MLK, Bevan, Lincoln, Attlee, Wilberforce and many more would probably disagree with you.

Lincoln freed slaves so he could win a war, he wasn't an idealist. He was a realist. Needs must. Things get done because they have to, not because it makes the world a better place.

And the drug trade is victimless? How utterly ignorant of the drug trade and the way it destroys entire communities and countries.

We're digressing, so I wont go into this too much. Do you understand the concept of a victimless crime? It's not about harm, it's about societies inability to prevent them happening. That's what makes those crimes different to murder, rape, theft etc.

user1492155021 · 14/04/2017 14:20

User, I have no cognitive bias, but I do enjoy your incorrect use of buzz words.

Doesn't stop you providing evidence of when I was wrong though, does it? ;)

And morality is the basis for law. Always has been.

Who's morality? The catholic church? Morality is subjective, it's an opinion. There is no way to prove that something is right or wrong. That's why the law isn't based on subjective morality, it's utilitarian.

ChocChocPorridge · 14/04/2017 14:25

So that's your maxim? Something is immoral if it's harmful? Smoking should be illegal? Eating too many doughnuts is immoral?

I think that forcing someone else to smoke should be illegal (hence pubs now not allowing it, to protect bar staff etc), or forcing someone else to eat doughnuts is immoral..

To put it back to prostitution - sticking your penis in someone else to masterbate == harmful. Sticking your penis in your own hand to masterbate == just fine

ChocChocPorridge · 14/04/2017 14:29

So it comes down to numbers, like I said - utilitarianism. Now reverse it and pretend that only a minority of women are harmed, should it still be illegal?

Lets get a bit of a sense of perspective here. You're asking how many women is it OK to harm, so that some bad men can orgasm.

None. In the society I want my family to be in, the answer is none.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 14:30

Yes, I understand the concept of a victimless crime.

Drugs isn't one.

Xenophile · 14/04/2017 14:32

And you're well aware of when you've been shown you're incorrect about factual information, because you immediately change the subject.