Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

however sadly there will always be people who will just buy things and take substances with zero knowledge about them. If they had been regulated to a safe standard rather than just bought from their local dealer (who is probably the 20th person to pass it on), this would reduce harm?
Probably not that much. If people took legally regulated cocaine all night and couldn't sleep so they took jellies, alcohol or valium to get some sleep, they are just as likely to die of a heart attack if they had been taking illegal cocaine.

Plus, if a guy suddenly turns violent, there is a lot he can do to a woman who is on her back, underneath him, before anyone can get there. Anyone who has been raped knows that. That is an immensely vulnerable position to be in.

In other words it would be safest if fewer people took drugs. Keeping them criminalised is a good way of preventing more people from taking drugs.

I find it utterly bizarre that in a world where 85,000+ women are raped every year just going about their business anyone would argue that a woman alone in a room with a man who sees women as something to be rented could be safe. It's ludicrous.

What sparrowhawk said!

Sparrowhawk - utter bollocks?! So you're telling me how safe I did or didn't feel now? Or is it just that you can't bare to stand the idea that some women work in sex work happily, as it clouds your view of how terrible it is?
When a client would enquire to book, our boss would ask what they wanted (what specific sexual acts), as different girls provided different services. He would then match them with one of us depending on that. So yes, we had total say over what happened. And as I say, in 4 years I was never abused in anyway. Most of the men that came were remarkably shy - seriously. None of them I ever encountered were forceful or pushy EVER. I put this down to the way the business was ran.

I don't deny the shocking rape figures - however I don't suspect that those raping women are the same men paying £100 an hour for sex. Ibfact I would argue they definitely are NOT the same men. Of all the women I work with, the ones who have been raped are Street workers as anyone can get hold of them sadly.

I find it utterly bizarre that in a world where 85,000+ women are raped every year just going about their business anyone would argue that a woman alone in a room with a man who sees women as something to be rented could be safe. It's ludicrous.
I think there is a difference between 'feeling safe' and 'being safe'. Feeling safe can just be the illusion created by dumb luck, not actually being safe, until you are 'unlucky' and have trouble feeling safe again for a long time.

So no one ever pushed slightly too hard? Or was a bit too rough? Every single man was lovely and respectful and gentle and kind? Wow! So all those women who are raped and abused by people they love should probably choose punters instead eh? They seem to be far better than men in general.

Sparrowhawk - yes. Do you think I'm making that up? As I say it was because of the way the business ran - it appealed to a certain clientele. This is how the sex industry should be ran.

Yes I say that you're making it up. I think you're a liar.

Sparrowhawk - you're argument falls short where you suggest that all men are the same. Men that access sex workers = the men who abuse and rape their partners. That's a very dangerous statement to make.

all the women I work with, the ones who have been raped are Street workers
Rachel Moran did street work, flats, brothels, escorting and stripping I think and she said being locked alone with a man is not better than being on the street where you can assess and have a means of escape.

Sparrowhawk hahaha ok, well then I suggest you bow out of this discussion. I am in no way making this up. Sorry to burst your bubble. You live in a very black and white world.

"Rachel Moran did street work, flats, brothels, escorting and stripping I think and she said being locked alone with a man is not better than being on the street where you can assess and have a means of escape."
Correct, however this was escorts who worked independently in their own homes. I would never have been able to do that myself. Sadly many women choose this route as it's not legal to run a premises with more than one woman.

Ask any woman who has had sex ever and she will have had at least one negative experience. There is no possible way you could have paid-for sex with strangers for years and not have had one negative experience.

Sparrowhawk - there is a possible way. And it happened! As a single girl (before meeting my partner), I had many negative experiences of men. Not whilst sex working though.

I'm impressed that your brothel managed to filter out 100% of the violent, entitled and abusive men. Especially as websites like punternet show that there are plenty of men who don't have these enlightened attitudes who still buy sex from women.

But if men are entitled to Sex as a basic human need doesn't that mean all men? Including violent and disrespectful ones. Can we really make all women so safe that these men will not be violent? Or it it all just a race to the bottom?

Riggghhht. So you had negative experiences with men you knew and liked, who were there to have sex as a couple (ie to enjoy intimacy with someone they liked) but no negative experiences with strangers who were there to rent your orifices? You expect us to believe that??

When did I say I had bad experiences from men "I knew and liked"? I said I had bad experiences of men when I was single.
Maybe it was the cost, maybe it was that they had to use their bank card for ID. O don't know but yes I was never abused in anyway.

Can I ask people, do you think pay-per-view porn of sex chat lines should be criminalised too? They too are services that provide sexual thrills for an agreed price, and are usually sold by a woman to a man.

Yep. And porn more generally and other expressions of the sex trade (lap dancing etc) it's the only logical position I can hold.

Indy - I don't at all. I have worked on webcams too, and can't imagine why anyone would argue that it's "wrong".

For anyone thinking I'm making up my experiences too - this is an interesting read
www.mamamia.com.au/every-coin-has-two-sides-the-sex-industry/

Actually, my last point raises a further question.

Is one of the principle objections to prostitution that the woman is at risk from physical harm? Suppose a man in the UK pays a girl in Russia to perform for him on webcam? Is that in any sense different?

I would say it's not morally any different.

I agree Tarle, but criminalising porn is going to be quite a challenge.