Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

The idea of hierarchising needs in a pyramidial scheme is actually really cranky. And what does self-actualisation mean?

I agree with people on this. Maslow's designation of sex as a need is very spurious, but it is one that has filtered down very successfully into folk psychology.

How often these days do you hear people talking about their sexual 'needs'? "I'm not getting my needs met" etc. That's a fairly recent trope.

I find it curious that people want 'safe spaces' in elite universities when elite universities are the safest places I'm the world

Slight derail but Independent I don't think you will get many people on this forum disagreeing that "safe spaces" is a ridiculous concept in the context it is now being used.

I really don't understand how criminalising, and marginalising something helps it become safer. I don't subscribe to the idea that sex work is a crime like any other crime, but are you coming from the point of view that it is, but it's the men who have the crime enacted on them should be criminalised.eg if you make being the victim of a burglar a criminal, you'll encourage people to keep their housekeeping secure, or are you saying men are the beneficiaries of the crime, so we should punish them..Eg burglary is legal, but we should concentrate on punishing those who buy or receive stolen goods (which could also include the burglar), or are you saying that it's like drugs, where the analogy would be selling drugs is legal and can be open, but buying them isn't?

The very fact that Maslow was a man operating in a pre second wave context means that it's not surprising that he displays a male entitlement to sex in his theorising.
Hear, hear!

Venus - the Oxford English dictionary definition of job - "A task or piece of work, especially one that is paid."

That's circular. "Work" is usually used to mean legitimate work, not illegal activities. You're engaging in sophistry.

Yes Scaryclown we are saying that the harm in this situation is being done by the punter to the prostitute and that is where the criminalisation should sit.

In the same way that it is illegal for employers to pay less than minimum wage but not illegal to be an employee who is paid less than minimum wage.

Their body, their choice.

Except we say they can't sell their kidneys.

Well for one if recreational drugs were legal and monitored we could make sure the ingredients are safe and not cut with dangerous alternatives
You could have those MDMA stations without legalising? I thought most people died from ODing or combining uppers and downers - 'cut' drugs is much less of an issue.

pirate In other words - cocaine is dangerous, opiates are dangerous, alcohol is dangerous, amphetamine is dangerous -whether or not they are 'cut'.

The only time illegalizing something had a negative impact was the prohobition, and that was because the cultures that made up the US at the time were used to drinking alcohol being a regular part of their lives.
Heroin was made illegal after its use had become widespread, and it has remained so. Apparently, this was considered better for the health of the general population.

Guardian - a lot of the reasons people are OD'ing recently is because of the strength of current drugs. We've had a lot of ecstasy ODs recently where I live and when tested some of them had 5 times the amount of MD in them.
No not at all, I don't think most drugs are that dangerous at all. However I think to decriminalise would ensure that they are regulated and safer.

scary
are you saying that it's like drugs, where the analogy would be selling drugs is legal and can be open, but buying them isn't?
Because prostitutes are people rather than goods or a substance, it is more akin to crimes against a person.
If you see it that way the confusion will be cleared up for you.

You don't think drugs are dangerous, when people are getting killed by ODing on MDMA?

Id legalise recreational drugs over prostitution. (Not seriously advocating it but still!) as I don't believe that the act of taking drugs is inherently abusive and exploitative.
I also believe that harm reduction policies for drugs have more chance of working because they don't rely on another human being choosing not to abuse you.

In addition you can have harm reduction without legalising.

Oh, and prostitution is not like drugs.

A man who takes drugs (and doesn't drive afterwards) only harms himself.

A man who feels entitled to use a female body to stick his dick into every time he feels like it is a huge danger to all women, and spreads his attitude to other men.

So if people choose to risk their health for money, we should just shrug and do nothing?

In the same way that it is illegal for employers to pay less than minimum wage but not illegal to be an employee who is paid less than minimum wage

Neat explanation. I like it.

Guardian - nope, although hats off to you for twisting words. You asked me "pirate In other words - cocaine is dangerous, opiates are dangerous, alcohol is dangerous, amphetamine is dangerous -whether or not they are 'cut'." and I said no - I don't think drugs in themselves are that harmful. Obviously when they are being increased in strength enough for people to OD then that's where the problem lies. A problem that wouldn't be if they were sold legally and regulated.

... Tartle was faster.

I'd definitely legalize marihuana and introduce the Nordic Model in Germany if that was a choice I could make.

Yes, good one

"So if people choose to risk their health for money, we should just shrug and do nothing?"
Nope (again) - we should try and make the environment safer, whilst accepting that making something illegal is not going to stop people doing it.

Drug companies would adore you Pirate - pay people enough and as long as they 'consent' (regardless of the reason for the consent - poverty, drug addiction etc) they can choose to be harmed by your experimental drugs.

Pirate are you of the opinion that women should be careful about being out alone late at night?

Ahhhhh sparrowhawk - your ignorance astounds me and you make it very obvious you haven't read back on previous posts.
No, I started with saying if people are forced into doing something (whether that's through trafficking, drug or alcohol addiction, or lack of capacity), then that is wrong and should be tackled.
And what on earth are you on about in regards to experimental drugs?!