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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

676 replies

MrsTerryPratchett · 13/04/2017 20:56

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour Grin

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 10:53

pirate how about saliva and hepatitis/ herpes in prostitutuion.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 10:55

Just checked those stats - the chance of contracting HIV from a single vaginal sex encounter, for a women is 1 in 1250 (0.08%) that is WITHOUT a condom. So we cam safely say using a condom the chance of HIV transmission is slim to none.
The chance of contracting HIV from a needle stick injury from. HIV+ patient is 1 in 149 (0.67%) - SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 10:58

As long as there are no open vaginally wounds, and a the numbing cream many use can disguise internal injuries from excessive penetration/ nail scratches, etc.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 10:58

Guardian - hepatitis, like HIV is blood borne so I would imagine similar results (possibly slightly higher as hep lives for linger outside of the body than HIV), but there would still be a higher risk for Nurses working with these patients as the risk of needle stick injury is far higher than sex with a condom. Herpes is always a risk too, although is generally only transmissible during an outbreak - you've just as much chance of getting a coldsore from someone you kiss on a night out! 😷😉

GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 11:01

Also pirate nurses will very rarely get needlestick injuries - it will be a big deal if she is, whereas prostitutes are vaginally penetrated as an integral part of the job.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/05/2017 11:03

- sex is a BASIC HUMAN NEED and if we look at Maslow's hierarchy it comes under the same category as food, shelter and sleep!

I don't know how you can write that and keep a straight face.

VestalVirgin · 01/05/2017 11:03

Just checked those stats - the chance of contracting HIV from a single vaginal sex encounter, for a women is 1 in 1250 (0.08%) that is WITHOUT a condom. So we cam safely say using a condom the chance of HIV transmission is slim to none.

That holds only for women who are a) not already injured and b) aroused during PiV.
A dry vagina increases the risk of transmission and the risk of injury, and you can't tell me that prostitutes aren't injured there after serving what, ten men that day already? Please.

Also, you are talking bollocks with regard to contraception. PiV is ALWAYS a risk of pregnancy.
There's enough mumsnetters already who say they got pregnant despite using pill and condom, both.
It's not a nice of comfortable truth, but PiV is dangerous for women.

GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 11:04

So how do you stop punters dribbling in your mouth accidentally or kissing you without thinking? Nuses don't generally have their bodily orifices close to the excreting fluids of a patient.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 11:05

Guardian - yes good point. However having regular sex with strangers isn't only limited to prostitutes. What about women that "pull" different guys every weekend? Would we call them victims and start saying men are the ones abusing women in this situation? The transaction of money doesn't just turn women into victims.

GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 11:06

Additionally, nurses can use face masks, etc to protect themselves - I don't think that would go down well with punters.

independentthinker21 · 01/05/2017 11:06

I have done it ChocChoc I worked at a major supermarket chain for 18 months after being made redundant and I barely survived. I had a 16 hour a week contract and worked all the overtime I could get, which was often not very much. I was renting and sharing with another woman and we both paid about 550 each Inc bills and council tax. It was tough.

You're lucky. You're evidently bright, articulate, well-read and you got yourself a good education so you could have a career. Lots of students do that. They pass through supermarkets on their way to a career. Not everyone is so lucky. It should be understood that an awful lot of people do not have careers: they have jobs. Not jobs on route to a career, but a job in which they will stay.

This really cuts to the nub of the whole issue. One of the foundational principles of feminism going right back to the nineteenth century, and one I agree with, is that all women should have economic independence and acces to their own private property if that's what they want.

So in our economic conditions, that implies a problem.

I don't know where you live but where I am a reasonable one bedroom house is a minimum of £550 a month to rent. A 10 x 6 room with some basic kitchen units and a toilet will put you back by about £400 a month. And as for buying, you're talking serious money before in order to cover a deposit.

Suppose a young working-class women wants to have her own life while working at a supermarket. I think my wage was just about the minimum - something like £7.70 ph - but let's round that up to 8. Most contracts are part-time for customer assistants, but again let's be charitable and imagine she's got a full-time contract of 40 hours a week. So what are we talking a month there? Something like a grand at the absolute most?

So if this woman does want to lead an economically independent life and have a space she can call her own, she has two choices. She can either spend ten years scrimping or saving for a deposit, or she could rent a house for herself. The problem with the latter option is that after bills and council tax she will be left with about £300 a month to live on. Even if she shares she'll still be losing at least a third of her wage every month. But there is a third option, and that's to give up on the idea of economic independence and get married and become a mum - which is what so many of these women do.

In short, feminism is now for middle-class, educated women.

Why should not the working-class woman have a career and a good education? Well if that is what she decides she wants to do then she should have that opportunity. But do you know how much a degree costs these days? I've just done my MA which I freely admit was paid for by my parents. It cost about £4'500. There are no doubt lots of very bright girls on supermarket checkouts who will never have the opportunity to make anything of that intelligence because neither they nor their parents have a spare 5 grand.

But there's another very important point to be made. Some people are not very academically gifted and are not capable of entering into a middle-class profession. They are more comfortable working in a supermarket for the rest of their lives. Does that mean they have any less worth as a human being? No. Doeds that mean that they are not as deserving of a house, economic security, a decent pension and a good wage than anyone else? No.

I find it curious that people want 'safe spaces' in elite universities when elite universities are the safest places I'm the world. The people who are really unsafe get nowhere near them.

VestalVirgin · 01/05/2017 11:08

Also pirate nurses will very rarely get needlestick injuries - it will be a big deal if she is, whereas prostitutes are vaginally penetrated as an integral part of the job.

Nurses are also not paid more if they stick themselves with needles, wear no gloves, or take other safety risks.

With prostitutes ... some men don't even use condoms with their girlfriends (or remove them secretly during sex - yes, that is a thing men do), and you think prostitutes can make their punters use condoms? And keep them on? Haha.

Even if we assume that the punters are not violent (which is already highly stupid and naive) then there's the fact that they are willing to pay much less if they have to use a condom.

venusinscorpio · 01/05/2017 11:09

I don't know how you can write that and keep a straight face.

Quite.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 11:09

Vestal - where are your statistic that state those figures are only in relation to women who are (for want of a better word) wet?!
Prostitutes are rarely dry, we use lube before clients enter the room. And I'm sorry but the chance of pregnancy when on BOTH the pill and using condoms is so rare it's not even worth going into. As a sex worker of 4 years (and never having a condom break), if one had burst I would have then also gone and accessed the morning after pill and there is now PeP which can be accessed following a risk of HIV

GuardianLions · 01/05/2017 11:09

However having regular sex with strangers isn't only limited to prostitutes. What about women that "pull" different guys every weekend?
But making your living through regular sex with strangers is limited to prostitutes.

Tartle · 01/05/2017 11:11

I mean needle stick injuries happen of course, they have happened to most of my hcp friends once in 10 years of working. I think one has had two. They go straight to occupational health, straight on PEP etc. I would guess in a 40 year career if you have more than 10 incidents you are being pretty reckless with procedures.

How many times would a prostitute have piv, oral or anal during the same length of time? Not counting the risk of abuse, stealthing, rape etc.

The risks of each injury might be higher for hcps but the relative risk is much lower.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/05/2017 11:13

Pirate is running the "being a prostitute is no different than"..... argument. It is not convincing.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 11:14

Vestal - clearly missing my point entirely. I am arguing for legislating prostitution - therefore making it safer BY LAW. Men would be penalised and charged for endangering sex workers.
So I'm stupid and naive to say clients aren't violent?? Well in my 4 years I've never had a close encounter to any dangerous situation. I now volunteer for an organisation who work with Street workers and they're put at risk all the time by dodgy punters. I've asked many of the women how they think this could be helped. They all say if they were able to work safely out of a premises in groups this would change however this is currently illegal.

VestalVirgin · 01/05/2017 11:15

Guardian - yes good point. However having regular sex with strangers isn't only limited to prostitutes. What about women that "pull" different guys every weekend

Those women can just leave if a man refuses to use a condom. Their leaving does not depend on whether they have earnt enough money that day.

But yes, considering that date rape is not prosecuted and that men do pretend to use condoms while actually not doing so - casual sex with men is dangerous for women.

Still not the same as prostitution.

Tartle · 01/05/2017 11:17

So independent you have just explained that you are everything that you are accusing us of being (middle class bourgeois) what exactly are you doing to bring about the changes you are espousing?

Other than arguing on the internet which is what you have accused us of being guilty of?

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 11:18

Vestal - yet AGAIN missing my point and wanting to argue the toss about the comparison between prostitution and other jobs/lifestyles.
My bottom line is - in order to increase safety of sex workers it is IMPERATIVE that it is decriminalised and legislated. From my own personal first hand experience and from working with Street workers for the last 2 years this is all any sex worker wants.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/05/2017 11:20

My bottom line is - in order to increase safety of sex workers it is IMPERATIVE that it is decriminalised and legislated

VestalVirgin · 01/05/2017 11:21

Vestal - clearly missing my point entirely. I am arguing for legislating prostitution - therefore making it safer BY LAW. Men would be penalised and charged for endangering sex workers.

The Green Party in Germany actually suggested such a law.

I read it. I might even be in favour of a law that makes prostitution as safe as any real job, but only if it is guaranteed that it will be enforced by the police without any mercy for the punters.

Because then you might as well have the Nordic Model.

Men don't pay for prostitutes so that they have to be more respectful and considerate than they'd have to be with a wife or girlfriend.

Having a woman in a full lab coat and safety gear - you know, the kind of thing all real professionals wear when handling infectious and otherwise dangerous fluids - helping them wank (obviously only using her hands, not her vagina) is not the sexual fantasy of most punters.

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 11:23

Vestal - sorry tell me more about how nurses aren't "real professionals" as we don't wear lab coats and goggles to clear up the diarrhoea of a c-diff patient....

ChocChocPorridge · 01/05/2017 11:23

it's about 1200/month, which becomes just over a grand take home.

I houseshared, but later I got my own flat, which was £600/month (half pay on housing is fairly normal in my life so far). Electricity/water/council tax 200/month, food 120/month, by the time I had my own house I had a motorbike, so insurance for that plus paying off small loan for it, plus petrol etc. 100/month - like I said, I had enough, but none spare.

My brother works full time for a supermarket, with no chance of getting a different job (he has disabilities). He's been working there long enough that he earns nearly 12/hour (plus he's open to overtime and night shifts). Plus of course the eating free for a month a year due to discount, and other staff benefits. He's happy with his life. He is in a house share with one other person (so if he had a partner, it would be a similar situation) - he has money for phones and a car, he has a small amount of savings etc. It's a perfectly fine life! He has a pension, he even has an ISA for goodness sake, the occasional holiday - all through work with no education - not even a GCSE - don't talk like it's not possible to live on a supermarket salary, because it is.

Zero hours contracts - well, that's a whole other ball game. Personally I think it's very middle class to think that working class people must be living in misery just because they can't afford to buy a house.