Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

Just for clarity I've been majorly swayed by arguments I've seen on these very boards. Let's try the Nordic model and in addition make it socially unacceptable for men to buy sex.

and in addition make it socially unacceptable for men to buy sex

Why is that such a difficult concept for some?

I'm not talking about solving all women's problems - I'm stating a fact. Reducing economic inequality and authorising the transference of wealth from those with high incomes to the poorest in society as well as socialising that money into the services and supports they depend upon will reduce prostitution massively. Will it wipe out all prostitution? No. Will it end misogyny and all of the problems that afflict women? No, but it will hit the sex industries hard. Many women will feel they have other options to prostitution and pornography to put a roof over their and their children's heads.

So what's the problem with that?

I'd be interested to know what the politics of people is here? Are you economic liberals or do you recognise a role for a redistributive state in ensuring equality? It really does depend on which side you fall upon.

and in addition make it socially unacceptable for men to buy sex

Absolutely. Go for it. How though? I think there's a role for parents in telling children that it's wrong.

But why not do that and what I suggest?

Exactly guardian. Some people will always be more vulnerable than others. Children, disabled women, women fleeing chaotic home lives and violence will always be more vulnerable. If the incentive is there men will continue to seek to control them. Even if standards are driven up for all women will still be at the bottom of the gender hierarchy because it exists purely for this purpose.

but I think much stronger links with chaotic home lives eg- parents who are addicts or have mental illnesses, etc.

Yep, and a large proportion of those families are poor.

I'd be interested to know what the politics of people is here? Are you economic liberals or do you recognise a role for a redistributive state in ensuring equality? It really does depend on which side you fall upon

No it really does not. The vast majority of women will never work as prostitutes. The vast majority of poor women will never work as prostitutes.Being opposed to accepting the idea as normal that sex can be bought does not neatly fall into a right/left divide.

You are the one setting out some sort of Marxist (?) agenda as a cure all.

Exactly. And how do you remove the market? You give people economic security so that they don't have to become prostitutes.

I don't think that's quite how markets work - for instance, I was surprised to find that there's a steady trade in toilet rolls on ebay (for craft activities). The market isn't driven by there being people with toilet rolls (after all, pretty much all of us do), but by the people that want the toilet rolls but don't want to put any effort into collecting them.

As goes the toilet roll trade, so goes prostitution. If men didn't want to buy sex that took no actual effort on their part, then women wouldn't be prostituted to supply it.

Exactly. And how do you remove the market? You give people economic security so that they don't have to become prostitutes

You kill the market by making punters pariahs.

Exactly Lass - and it's completely possible. Look what we've done for drink-driving, smacking kids, smoking while pregnant etc. All of these things are harshly judged and pretty rare now. It's totally feasible to do that for men who buy prostituted women.

I'm not a Marxist. Not any kind of revolutionary Marxist anyway. And I'm not saying anything is a cure all. There is no such thing as a cure all for literally anything. Just because the vast majority of poor women don't work as prostitutes it does not alter the fact that the vast majority of prostitutes are poor, or come from a poor background, or are responding to economic pressures. Some are fugitives from abuse, but even they often end up on the streets or in other situations of financial hardship. These women need good jobs and safe housing.

So we can do our best to raise our boys to believe prostitution is wrong and tell them it is wrong at school through sex education programmes. We can also criminalize the buying of prostitutes. Will they be cure all solutions? No? Does that invalidate them? No.

So why is it such a problem that my proposal is not a cure all? I think it is because we want to do something about inequality and feel good about ourselves but without footing the bill. We want to make these issues about everything but economics.

"So what's the problem with that?

I'd be interested to know what the politics of people is here? Are you economic liberals or do you recognise a role for a redistributive state in ensuring equality? It really does depend on which side you fall upon."

No problem with that. Who are you arguing against on this? Will greater economic equality increase options for economically disadvantaged women and potential make prostitution a less attractive option- yes of course. But it completely ignores the fact that the majority of prostitutes are groomed and coerced into prostitution by men and that men reap most of the economic rewards of this coercion. It doesn't solve the route of the problem which is that whilst men feel entitled to buy women's bodies other men (and some women) will coerce, groom and abuse women into servicing those men for their own gain.

Buying sex harms women. It harms the women from whom it is bought and it harms women in a wider societal context. It should therefore be banned. This is the moral and philosophical standpoint that radical feminists are arguing from. That statement is not mutually exclusive with your economic ideas but we see that as tinkering around the edges rather than addressing the true heart of the problem.

The politics of the people on here is I am sure vastly divergent but I think it tends more towards the benefit of the redistribution of wealth and role of the state than against it. For those who are arguing for the Nordic model we have discussed the barriers to implementation in the uk and the lack of social support that is available in those countries was seen as something that would need to be addressed.

Unfortunately neither liberal or socialist politics have ever had any compunction about throwing women under the bus if necessary.

** So why is it such a problem that my proposal is not a cure all? I think it is because we want to do something about inequality and feel good about ourselves but without footing the bill. We want to make these issues about everything but economics

I think it's because you decided to come and mansplain basic economics on a feminist board while refusing to engage with the issue from a feminist perspective.

As goes the toilet roll trade, so goes prostitution. If men didn't want to buy sex that took no actual effort on their part, then women wouldn't be prostituted to supply it.

Two points. Firstly, supply and demand goes both ways. The idea that it goes one way is a fallacy of neoliberal economics. Corporations demand a ready supply of cheap Labour, which is why they get governments to destroy unions and revoke employment rightd. Similarly, pimps need a supply of prostitutes. If that isn't there, then their business model does not work.

Secondly, it would be absolutely great if men just suddenly stopped wanting to have sex with prostitutes. We should tell men that is wrong to use prostitutes, but as realists we should also accept that men will continue to use prostitutes despite what we say - just as bankers will continue to be greedy and energy companies will continue to pump carbon into the atmosphere. We have to also intervene to stop people from behaving like this and address the wider structural contexts which allow them to act as they do.

If my strategy for reversing climate change was stating over and over again on an internet forum that it's wrong to pump poisoned ash into the skies and you should feel really bad about doing then that would not work.

I

Buying sex harms women. It harms the women from whom it is bought and it harms women in a wider societal context. It should therefore be banned. This is the moral and philosophical standpoint that radical feminists are arguing from. That statement is not mutually exclusive with your economic ideas but we see that as tinkering around the edges rather than addressing the true heart of the problem.

I've repeatedly agreed that it should be banned. I'm in favour of the Nordic law.

In all, you do three things.

1. You tell children from a young age that buying sex is wrong, and reinforce this within the education system. Moral values have to be instilled during childhood and adolescence.

2)You make it illegal.

3. You address poverty, economic insecurity and inequality via redistribution.

Anyone disagree?

in addition make it socially unacceptable for men to buy sex

Why is that such a difficult concept for some?

I wonder

Its odd that the feminists (and lass) appear to be more optimistic about mens abilities to control their penises than the newcomers to the board.

in addition make it socially unacceptable for men to buy sex

I agree. But how? I think the best way to raise children to believe it is wrong and unacceptable as I say.

Firstly, supply and demand goes both ways. The idea that it goes one way is a fallacy of neoliberal economics. Corporations demand a ready supply of cheap Labour, which is why they get governments to destroy unions and revoke employment rightd. Similarly, pimps need a supply of prostitutes. If that isn't there, then their business model does not work

I never said it did - however in my opinion, the place to go after is the place with the money - ie. the men buying sex. In your corporation example, the money is with the corporation, so they are the best target. In drugs, the money would be with the suppliers, in toilet rolls, you'd go after the buyers because they are the ones driving it.

I don't see the problem with supporting vulnerable women and children so they can avoid prostitution, but I think the major push, the place that will make the most direct difference, is making it unacceptable to buy sex in our society. Drinking and driving is massively reduced just by doing that - no need to stop pubs serving booze, hell, garages even sell it now, 24 hour supermarkets make it cheap and available - what reduced it was societal change to make it strongly frowned upon to drive home after your evening at the pub. Yes, some people still do, but the vast, vast majority would no more do it than get in the car and forget to buckle up.

Its odd that the feminists (and lass) appear to be more optimistic about mens abilities to control their penises than the newcomers to the board.

Believing men will suddenly stop using prostitutes just coz is not optimistic. It's completely absurd. I like to feel optimistic about people's ability to control their aggression, but I don't think the situation in Syria is going to just stop as everyone sees the light and the Kurds, ISIS, Sunni and Shia all join hands and sing 'I'd like to teach the world to sing'.

The prostitution industry is worth 186 billion worldwide. It won't just end because of some feminists online. I'd love it to, but it won't.

In fact, people calling for the Nordic law don't think it would either. Because if they did then there wouldn't be any need for a law would there? Surely men should just stop wanting to use prostitutes without the state having to stop them?

I think men going out of their way to express their disgust at men talking abput brothels would help more. And not endlessly banging on about "economic imperative" and "job like any other".

I don't think parenting is necessarily as important at instilling values as wider social messages and I suspect you are trying to duck your own responsibility in tgis.

• Prison terms (for violent ones)
• Fuck off big fines
• Entrance onto the sex offenders register
• Immediate barring from holding public office

sex in our society. Drinking and driving is massively reduced just by doing that - no need to stop pubs serving booze, hell, garages even sell it now, 24 hour supermarkets make it cheap and available - what reduced it was societal change to make it strongly frowned upon to drive home after your evening at the pub. Yes, some people still do, but the vast, vast majority would no more do it than get in the car and forget to buckle up.

I do agree with that. What would really do some good is showing children videos and giving them information which lay bare the reality of prostitution. Make them all watch Lilya 4 Ever. Get someone who was in the industry in to tell them about what it's really like in PSE lessons. Totally in favour of a public information programme and educational initiatives like that.

I don't think parenting is necessarily as important at instilling values as wider social messages and I suspect you are trying to duck your own responsibility in tgis.

It has to come from parents and schools. Where else is it going to come from? How would this social message be disseminated?

From people LIKE MEN expressing disapproval at this behaviour.
Where did anti-smoking sentiment come from? Anti-drugs? Anti-drink driving? It was a social change driven by legislation, enforcement and wider education e.g. advertising. Not schools. People like you going on about economic choice and how nothing can be done about men wanting to buy sex are the biggest part of the problem.
Stop abdicating responsibility to someone else.