I was surprised by my reaction to using a gender neutral toilet today

[RugbyBuoys]

I've been contracting this week for a company who work from a relatively small, quiet office building. I was advised that the loos for women were the gender neutral ones. Initially I thought this was a good thing - it felt like the way things should be going.

However, I was surprised how vulnerable I felt using the loos - going in to the cubicles (big gaps under doors and walls) when another person unknown was in the next door cubicle, and also when finding the loos empty, going into a cubicle and then hearing someone else enter the room.

I realised that when you are getting yourself partially undressed in a public loo, it isn't gender of your fellow users that feels relevant, it is biological sex. It was something of a revelation, as I had thought prior to this I would feel fine in a gender neutral set of loos.

I have no significant experience that should make me especially wary of the male sex, but I certainly did feel very uncomfortable and unsafe in that situation.

I now think that people should experience using these sort of toilets (in a non-busy environment where you can't be sure that there will always be people popping in and out) to see how they feel about sitting on the loo and hearing heavy foot steps outside, before they reach a conclusion about converting all loos to gender neutral.

By all means have gender neutral toilets, but women-only loos must not be taken away as part of this is my conclusion.

Interestingly, I noticed that there was another set of loos further on down the corridor - but for men only. No women-only toilets...

Sadly because to prove him wrong I looked on the Internet. I was astounded

Sadly doesn't surprise me. Though not exactly the same, there was an article in The Telegraph a few months ago by Radhika Sanghani about Twitter accounts etc dedicated to taking photographs of women and girls in public without them knowing and sharing them, it's quite disturbing how commonplace and popular this kind of thing is.

I don't think it's paranoia. One of the men was arrested over this at a place I previously worked at. I'm actually quite anxious about it now. I'm due to start a new job shortly and noticed that they had a unisex sign on the door to the loos when I went for interview. I didn't go in, so I'm not sure what the set up is, but I'm really already worrying about it!

Why is it not sex discrimination to provide single sex toilets for men and not for women? I don't get how organisations are getting away with this.

Because "woman" has now been redefined to be a "gender", and discriminating against a "gender" is not illegal in the law? And women can have any sex whatsoever? I can only assume.

Of course, this means we should use the men's loo. In groups of five or so, for safety. If anyone asks, we identify as men. Because gender.

Ladies lavatories are dangerous and frightening enough (when no one is around), but gender neutral is even worse if you are not allowed to get into red alert mode when a man comes in because it's supposed to be normal.

If I thought of a teenage daughter having to go alone into a lavatory filled with drunk men at a night club, say, I'd go mad.

Another thing apart from the unpleasantness of feeling vulnerable to the male sex in gender neutral lavatories, is that a lot of men will make them dirty: spray on the seats, and floor, not put the seat down, have touched the seats with their own dirty unwashed hands, so you have to touch them to put them down.

Does anyone know what is happening to men's lavatories with urinals in them which women can't use?

Probably there will be fewer lavatories now too. If they all get made genderless/sexless they'll probably have only about 3/4 the present number.

Actually, this has to stop.

It's really annoying when you have kids with you. I have a 2yo and a 4yo and often in a ladies' toilet I will go for a quick wee with the cubicle door half open to keep an eye while they look at the sinks/hand dryers etc. In a gender neutral toilet the other day there was a man washing his hands so I had to drag the kids into the cubicle with me, it was really cramped and they kept trying to unlock the door while I was weeing. This was a place for kids btw - a trampoline park so frequented by lots of kids of different ages.

It'll certainly give the "he's seven, of course he shouldn't be in the ladies" brigade an attack of the vapours...
I wouldn't dream of going into a mixed loo, but I have no argument with them in principal if they're an added extra for those who feel the need.
Having a men's and an "anything goes" is beyond bloody belief

Also a dignity thing. A woman at Liverpool St Station got caught with a heavy period in the Ladies loo. She could not get the tampon vending machine to work. I dug out a few towels and handful of tampons from the bottom of bag and gave them to her.

I was at a children's science centre this week and had my first experience of gender neutral loos in a public place. To be fair they had slapped man/woman signs on all the toilets rather than just the ladies.

Like a PP, I felt uneasy about leaving the kids unattended to use the toilet myself. And uncomfortable about coming across a man in a confined space who I had earlier witnessed screaming at some kids at the playground. I felt that the kids were unusually vulnerable.

Why do these feelings not count?

Literally feet away from the toilets was an exhibit about sex and genetic inheritance, which seemed...incongruous.

I would strongly encourage everyone who feels uncomfortable in these gender neutral facilities to make complaints

I really can't agree with all toilets being gender neutral though; although obviously not co opting the womens while leaving the mens as it is is a huge step forward (!)
But why the hell can't it be a third option?

You'd be done for hate crime, Dino. Big Brother is still watching you.

So basically there are two genders which count.

1. Male
2. Gender neutral Male

That's it, Epip. It's a man's world. Especially when you're a ladyman.

Why is it not sex discrimination to provide single sex toilets for men and not for women? I don't get how organisations are getting away with this.

I've thought the same about those pop-up urinals which appear in some city centres. The argument against providing the same number of conveniences for women seems to be "oh but it isn't the women who'd otherwise urinate in the shop doorways/alleyways". Oh that's OK then, just ignore us

Befairdontjudge, your anecdote illustrates the need for women's loos. It also illustrates the camaraderie between women over women's issues like periods. We help each other because we know how it feels. I don't think most transwomen get that.

I already know that I would feel hugely uncomfortable in toilets where men were present too. As a young girl, I would have found it absolutely mortifying and quite frightening. There was a thread recently where someone was sharing her experience of her 12 year old DD being leered at which had a huge response from women who'd experienced the same at that age. I know I learnt to be very wary of strange men at an early age.

Interestingly, where I work we have separate toilets for women and men. On the ground floor, where I work, there has developed an implicit understanding that you wait until all the other women are at their desks before you head to the loo yourself. I don't know why this happens, but maybe we are all conscious of the privacy aspect? We are all very much introverts too so I wonder if that is part of it. I would not want to use a toilet if there was a man in there for the same reasons - privacy and dignity.

Floggingmolly - I think it's 'safe' to raise the issue of the gender neutral toilets if you don't bring trans into it. In the first instance, I think we need to focus on preserving women's spaces from men. The problem of taking in small children and their proneness to unlock doors is an excellent thing to bring to the attention of places that are installing these - the children's science centre, for instance. From there, we can address the issue of who exactly is entitled to access which sorts of female spaces.

The children's science centre where I am is pretty new, and I noticed in the bit where I used the toilets (there's more than one floor - this was right at the top) that they'd done the single cubicle with sink off a corridor thing, but still there were one accessible, one women or men, and one men.

Predictably, despite the newness of the place, and remoteness of the toilet, it was stinky. There was a sanitary bin, but no dispenser.

This is the problem - by having these mixed toilets, women are actually losing facilities, our toilets are actually becoming worse because of it.

...but still there were one accessible, one women or men, and one men.

Hell, it's annoying.

How long will it be before women everywhere start to use the accessible toilet as the only one with any level of decent hygiene?

How many more people is this ideology going to shit on

I've started to take my own tissues after coming across this gem. This guy's just one of thousands who has a kink about the ladies.

They're talking about this on LBC now, with Paris Lees being interviewed

I honestly don't know how Paris Lees gets such air time. Does anyone ever do any due diligence on things she has said?

Oh God Rogue.. Jesus.. I'm going to be paying much more attention to toilet paper from now on.

Jesus, hasn't the Internet got a lot to answer for? . Time was, that sad bastard would have been sitting alone in his grubby bedroom with his disgusting fantasies.
Now he has a platform to share them with the world at large. Progress isn't always a positive thing.

Floggingmolly

I agree with all that. He would have been isolated. Now he is a member of an online community all affirming his perversion.