Legal gender and sex - confused

[jellyfrizz]

Gender has nothing to do with biological sex (other than stereotypes). Most transgender people will agree with this and indeed argue that gender has got nothing to do with what is between your legs.

So why then are people allowed to change their sex on their birth certificate and erase their past? How you present or what you do to your body has nothing to do with biological sex. Why would you want to do this if gender is unrelated to sex?

I'm guessing it's because historically people were classed as transsexual rather than transgender but once it became transgender surely 'changing' sex legally should have been stopped rather than the two being conflated? I'm told gender is a spectrum so what are you transitioning from/to?

It's interesting how many of the negative comments on that article are essentially saying that women can't speak about/understand/describe/identify with the life experience of transwomen.

OH the irony!

yet transwomen apparentlyknow that they feel like or are women!

egosumquisum1 Yes, I did smile at that article. I do not buy into the trans ideology, nor do I believe it is possible to change sex.

Quite separate from dealing with any alleged bullying and name-calling, to see a service manager say ""We do embrace equality and we are non-prejudiced. We accept his right to express himself in any way he chooses to. We have been making inquiries and there is no evidence of him being treated unfairly. We will continue to promote his right to express his personality in any way he wishes.", is I think surprisingly refreshing. Gender is not sex but rather personality characteristics.

BetsyM00 "To be honest, even if this bill doesn't go through, I don't think it matters a damn - that horse has already bolted. The current legislation (Gender Recognition Act) says a man can already legally change sex and still keep his penis, and the current Equality Act says a man with a penis is protected even if he is only 'proposing' to change sex." "As previously said above in this thread what matters is protecting female spaces. At the moment a service provider has to be able to prove the exclusion of men is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim."

I agree. This is all we seem to have left to fight for at the moment. It's important to get the message out regarding the current law as you define in your first lines. I don't think the general public are aware that transgender people haven't necessarily had reassignment surgery. I was one who assumed they all had until about a year ago. I think the general public are happy to give their sympathies and protection to transsexuals - and have wrongly assumed this is what the laws uphold - but less sympathetic with the blurring of lines that gender self-identity brings. The more people who know that mtt are likely to still have a penis, the more likely they are to fight for their female segregated spaces.

I was one who assumed they all had until about a year ago

The more people who know that mtt are likely to still have a penis, the more likely they are to fight for their female segregated spaces

What do you think happens when someone presents at a clinic? Do you know how long the process takes and what's involved?

What should happen during that time as physical changes take place and the trans person is trying to 'live their life?"

From presenting at the GP to surgery was a 6 yr process.

I was one who assumed they all had until about a year ago

Did you assume that all transwomen had had surgery? There are transwomen who don't have surgery, those who have had surgery and those who are on the very long process to surgery. Surgery just does not happen straightaway. It's a major procedure with strict rules and guidelines to ensure that people don't rush into it.

Thing is ego, I think most people expect anyone known as a transwoman to have had surgery.

It used to be pre-op and post-op transsexual

Then it somehow became surgical / non surgical.

Then it never got mentioned. Probably when transgender emerged instead of transsexual.

Yes, I think that's probably the case.

Then it never got mentioned. Probably when transgender emerged instead of transsexual.

And therein lies the rub.

ego I hadn't reason to give it much thought. I knew criteria for surgery was having to live as the opposite sex for 2 years I did not know this would potentially give someone the right to use the facilities or services of the opposite sex before having surgery and I did not know grc could be granted without surgery. I had no idea gender reassignment existed as a protected characteristic. I'm not an employer and have been busy with the usual jugglin of working and bringing up children. I don't move in any circles tgat would have made me privvy to that information. I'm not even sure it showed up in my diversity e-learning at work until less than a year ago. So nope, not on my radar until last year.

Notafish

It's not on most people's radar.

Inclusivity and accommodating people through kindness, takes on a different aspect when you realise that this will allow men who have penises and remain attracted to women have access to women and children in intimate spaces.

It makes their identity, genuine or otherwise, completely irrelevant.

Funnily enough, the guidance my organisation has given out regarding how to treat trans patients - so obviously written by transgender people - does not make it clear either.

A trans person presents at the GP and goes for referral to the clinics. During that time, they are expected to undergo the RLE which involves changing documents and beginning to 'live as a woman'. During that time, they eventually get HRT and that eventually begins to have physical changes.

At some point during that time, that trans person usually makes the decision over the toilets to use. A lot of how they approach that decision and when to take it depends on the personality of the trans person.

Eventually, the trans person is referred to a surgeon (if they take that route) and surgery takes place.

You can't tell if a trans person has had surgery or not - and I would have thought that most people would be able to realise that a trans person may or may not have had surgery without having to be told.

But....there are going to be trans people who don't have surgery and who don't want surgery.

But....there are going to be trans people who don't have surgery and who don't want surgery.

And that's fine. I fully support anyone living their life to whatever sex role stereotypes (gender) they wish. And changing their body how they wish.

But I don't understand how any of this gives anyone the right to have their birth certificate changed to show the opposite sex. They are not the opposite sex. 'Opposite' gender - yes. Opposite sex - no.

I fully support anyone living their life to whatever sex role stereotypes (gender) they wish

Not all trans people decide to live their life following sex stereotypes. Some do. Some don't.

Ok. I fully support people living their lives presenting however they wish.

I still don't understand how this, or any thing else can make you the opposite sex.

The lovely Andie has given us an excellent example of the sort of person this bill is designed to benefit.

I’ve never felt like I’m a woman trapped in the wrong body. says Andie, I guess I fall into one of the non-binary categories ... I don’t ever see myself as going full-time as a woman – it’s too much like hard work and I quite like my “bloke” side.

Until fairly recently, I’ve satisfied my transgender fix with clothes. I’ve worn lingerie every day since 2006 and girls’ nightwear since 1998. Most of my wardrobe is androgynous, so I wear girls’ jeans, T-shirts, coats, shoes and trainers day in and day out – but only by looking closely would you know. A boot buckle here, a little pink stitching there.

Andie does not intend to have surgery - There’s no way I want to lose my little guy – he’s given me far too much pleasure over the years.

Andie uses women's toilets sometimes, even though, To most people, they’d see just a normal “bloke” with receding hair – maybe with girly eyebrows and shoes ... a non-binary person resembling a man.

Why does Andie need to use the women's toilet? Is it because Andie is scared to use the men's?

Now being a AMAB (assigned male at birth) non-binary person, I sort of use the men’s and ladies’ toilets ... I prefer to use the ladies’ but usually cop out and use the men’s – especially if it’s busy. If I feel brave, I will use the ladies.

Andie can use the men's toilet without issue but uses the women's when feeling 'brave'.

all I wanted to do was relieve myself, like everyone else, in the toilet that I felt most comfortable in because of my gender, like everyone else.

Andie thinks women use the women's toilet because we feel most comfortable there because of our 'gender'. This is all about validating Andie's gender identity (whatever it is this afternoon).

Andie doesn't believe women when we talk about male violence: what’s the big deal? Some argue that rapists would stick a dress on, access the ladies’ that way and then start some campaign of sexual abuse. Really? Come on, it’s just not going to happen!

Not all trans people decide to live their life following sex stereotypes. Some do. Some don't.

And if you don't follow sex stereotypes in what way are you trans rather than body dsyphoric?

Andie if you're lurking, I don't give a shit how 'lovely' your 44AAAA bra 'feels' you are not a woman and you do not belong in our spaces.

And if you don't follow sex stereotypes in what way are you trans rather than body dsyphoric

That's a very good question and a very long and complex answer about how the mind sees the body and how the person is perceived by society as a whole.

egosumquisum1

Could you attempt an explanation? 'Andie' says that he does not feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. He likes his penis. He likes wearing sexy lingerie. How is this not a cross dressing fetishist?

How is someone with all the above, but also gender dysphoria, trans?

How is this not a cross dressing fetishist

Andie seems to be someone who likes wearing sexy lingerie and enjoys the thrill his penis gets when he wears such stuff.

He doesn't seem trans to me - he does not seem to be someone who is trapped in the wrong body.

Nor does he have 'gender' dysphoria - if that's even the right word.

As someone who has first hand experience of a man with autogynephilia, telling a load of porkies, in order to "trans", this whole thing worries me.

All this talk about biological "sex" yet the autogynephilia aspect is taboo

WickedLazy

'Andie' says he loves his penis because it's given him so much pleasure. And on the same blog said he was desperate to get hormone treatment to make him look more womanly. He has told the doctor he has gender dysphoria.

I'm not sure how you can love your penis and have gender dysphoria at the same time.

And I agree AGP is being swept under the carpet at a rate of knots.

I'm not sure how you can love your penis and have gender dysphoria at the same time

Me neither. I wonder if he knows what HRT will do to his penis?