Legal gender and sex - confused

[jellyfrizz]

Gender has nothing to do with biological sex (other than stereotypes). Most transgender people will agree with this and indeed argue that gender has got nothing to do with what is between your legs.

So why then are people allowed to change their sex on their birth certificate and erase their past? How you present or what you do to your body has nothing to do with biological sex. Why would you want to do this if gender is unrelated to sex?

I'm guessing it's because historically people were classed as transsexual rather than transgender but once it became transgender surely 'changing' sex legally should have been stopped rather than the two being conflated? I'm told gender is a spectrum so what are you transitioning from/to?

Your first section of transwomen could still include people with AGP.

And I have been told by Caroline Dinedage MP that the very existence of autogynephilia is controversial (despite me sending loads of links to websites devoted to the enjoyment of it).

yes, AFAIK autogynephilia is viewed as not okay to mention.

I talked to my local MP about this although now I'm not sure I knew what I was on about (!) and she said the main change was that other people would no longer have a say in the individual's application for GRC, whereas previously spousal consent was required?

I am sorry to say the more I learn about this the more confused I get. All I want is for Maria Miller et al to clarify what it will mean for those of us who were born women and their safe spaces and then I get cross because I think, wow, they've almost succeeded in getting me to say "cis". Argh.

I think for GRC, they would not take you seriously if you hadn't evidence about HRT / surgery (including a letter from a surgeon) - or had a reason for not having surgery.

But I'm not sure on that. I don't think getting a GRC is that easy as you need evidence from a medical professional.

In terms of evidence you need a medical report that shows a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and a statutory declaration that you meet the conditions above. No hormones or surgery necessary

That's not actually true. You need a letter from the GP stating that you are undergoing treatment

I think that both answers refer to attending a GRC and being diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

In other words, you are under the care of a medical professional and that you 'intend to live your life as the opposite sex' .

Get that letter and it goes on your file and you get passport / driving license as M or F.

That then helps you prove your dysphoria and you get the diagnosis and 2 years later, you have lived as someone of the opposite sex and that adds weight to get the GRC.

But yes, once you ask a professional what does 'living as the opposite sex mean', it's hard to answer.

They do make a note of how you 'present' though and that goes on your records. I don't know if that carries any weight in getting a diagnosis.

If you want to access treatment such as HRT and surgery, you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and documentary evidence you've been 'living in role' for 2 years. I think the guidelines may have changed but it was certainly 1 year RLE before you could even get HRT - and that's why some people get HRT off the internet.

I think the idea of 'living in role' was so that they thought you were serious before getting HRT and surgery. Your friends and family had to know as did your employers.

But....what did they need to know? How are you supposed to live your life differently to before? Are you supposed to present differently? Are you supposed to change your name? In a sense, doing all that imposes gender through appearances and external notions. But if you don't change your name and don't present as 'they' would expect, can you 'pass' the RLE and get HRT and surgery?

It's the elephant in the room.

So why then are people allowed to change their sex on their birth certificate

This part is utterly crazy to me. How the fuck can you change birth certificates given they are a record of when you were actually born. Even if you have now had operations to mimic the sex you want to be...you were still born (and still ARE) whatever sex you are

The destroying of records before 'transition' is pretty scary too tbh. Its like deciding to be trans gives you a brand new clean slate in life.

It's the elephant in the room.

Because gender is made up. It can be what anyone wants it to be.

And transactivists are disregarding it together. Because biological sex is a social construct now, so they don't need gender any more.

Its like deciding to be trans gives you a brand new clean slate in life

People don't decide to be trans. It's not a choice. It's not something undergone lightly.

The destroying of records before 'transition' is pretty scary too tbh

Your DBS checks still link to any old names and any old history.

People don't decide to be trans. It's not a choice. It's not something undergone lightly.

For some people ego it's the biggest kick of their life. They don't all have gender dysphoria.

I notice that Maria Miller referred to women objecting to her proposed bill as "purporting to be feminists". It's so interesting how it all seems to revolve around language and naming. Are women not even allowed to define themselves as "feminists" now, without someone else's say so?

You are not a real feminist if you do not centre transwomen in your feminism dontchya know.

Ie. Feminism must centre males.

Bat.Shit.

I rather suspected autogynephilia was not be mentioned. If I remember rightly Miranda Yardley was quite clear on here in saying that it was definitely a thing.

I think as with so much of this issue, we are hamstrung before we start in being able to discuss the realities. The whole terms and parameters of the debate have been so badly distorted that there seems to be no way in.

women purporting to be feminists

Really pissed me off. It's so loaded. On the one hand it denigrates femimists by using the word purporting and and on the other hand to denigrates women for not pretending to be feminists.

women purporting to be feminists

It's a very clever slur.

If you agree with feminism, you know you can ignore women's concerns about the Gender Identity Bill because they are not real feminists.

If you disagree with feminism, you can ignore the concerns because they are from feminists. So either way, there is no need to even consider the issues raised.

So much easier to slur people than engage with discussing the issues. Maria Miller should be ashamed of herself.

Buzzfeed could do a listicle of the number of ways Maria Miller should be ashamed of herself.

People don't decide to be trans. It's not a choice. It's not something undergone lightly.
Some people don't. I feel I can say with certainty that some do these days.

Yes, it depends on the definition of "transgender". It's quite a wide one nowadays.

I've been on a trawl ...

gov.uk has a guide to applying for a GRC here.

Documents you must provide -

1. A statutory declaration - you solemnly swear you have 'lived full time as a male/female (delete as appropriate)' and you intend to continue doing so until death. You get a legal bod to witness it.

2. Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender for 2 years - examples they give are passport, driving licence, payslips, benefit documents, utility bills or other docs of an official nature. The guidance notes that go with the application form say typically 5 or 6 different documents are required to cover the period of at least two years.

3. Two medical reports, one of which must be from a gender dysphoria specialist and which must include details of your diagnosis of gender dysphoria. The other from a registered medical practitioner, e.g. a GP, which must include details of any treatment you’ve had to change your sexual characteristics, eg hormone treatment or surgery.

The guidance for filling in the medical report states that 'If the patient has not had surgery then the report must explain why.'

So far so good, but where can I find info on acceptable reasons for not having had surgery?

The general guidance, linked from the 'Overview' section on gov.uk, includes a big list of orgs for further help and advice. One of the orgs listed is UK Trans Info, who have produced a helpful guide to getting a GRC here. Their advice is:

If you haven’t had any surgery then the report must explain the reason why. This could be because you are on a waiting list, because you aren’t medically able, because you are waiting for improvements in surgical techniques, because you don’t feel the need for surgery or for any other reasons, but an explanation must be given.

So 'reasons' basically. But will your application be taken seriously if you haven't had surgery? Gires (also linked to in the govt. guidance notes) say:

The GRP is definitely minded to grant applications, wherever legally possible, which is why directions are given rather than making final decisions which might not be in favour of the applicant. So despite the high rate of requests for further information very few applications actually fail outright. In most cases the issues are around information not being submitted correctly, the most common one of late being the stat dec form not being filled out correctly and/or not witnessed and signed in the prescence of someone qualified to do so.

And according to the latest official statistics a full GRC was granted in 90% of applications.

Almost all applications to the panel are decided 'on paper'. 'Attending' the panel is not a routine thing (that's from one of the official guidance docs, can't remember which).

2) Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender for 2 years - examples they give are passport, driving licence, payslips, benefit documents, utility bills or other docs of an official nature. The guidance notes that go with the application form say typically 5 or 6 different documents are required to cover the period of at least two years.

I don't understand this. These are the things you must do to get a GRC, but you need GRC to get half of those things.

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender for 2 years - examples they give are passport, driving licence, payslips, benefit documents, utility bills or other docs of an official nature. The guidance notes that go with the application form say typically 5 or 6 different documents are required to cover the period of at least two years

To get the documents such as driving license and passport, you need to get a letter from the GP / GIC saying that you intend to live 'as male or female' for life.

Get that letter and that gives you documentation. The documentation then adds to the evidence of 'living as male / female' and helps with a diagnosis.

It's sort of a circle. By getting that letter, you get the documents. Get the documents, you add weight to the evidence. Really, you've just got documents.

Proof you're living in the aquired gender - what does that actually mean? When you analyse that statement, it really falls apart - but it's necessary to get on the treatment pathway for HRT and surgery - and to getting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

These are the things you must do to get a GRC, but you need GRC to get half of those things

You don't. A GRC from what I understand gets you to change your birth certificate and also to change your sex on insurance forms such as life insurance and car insurance.

You don't need a GRC to change passport / driving license.

No you don't, Datun. As ego has explained you can change your passport or driving licence with a deed poll and a letter from your doctor. If your own doctor won't play ball you can always get in touch with Helen Webberley (not linking to her quack site!) She'll do you an assessment for £50+.

The others don't generally state your sex anyway so a deed poll would suffice.

x post ego.

You just need a letter from your doctor to change your passport?

You just need a letter from your doctor to change your passport

You would need a letter stating that you 'intended to live as the aquired gender' from your GP for the rest of your life.

How the GP decides to write that letter and the evidence they need to write that is up to the GP.

Whoever it's up to, there can't be any way of showing it's little more than a guess.