Laws that sex workers really want - anti-Nordic-model TED talk

[iismum]

A friend of mine just posted this video - it's a TED talk by a sex worker discussing how a NZ model is what (according to her) pretty much all sex workers want. She discredits full and partial criminalisation of sex work - which I quite agree with. She also talks about how the Nordic model is really bad for sex workers, whereas I support the Nordic model. But she made some interesting points - particularly how the Nordic model does not reduce the demand for sex work, it just makes it more dangerous and fosters more negative attitudes to sex workers. Is this really true?

I'd be really interested to hear people's thoughts about it. If you want to skip to what she says about the Nordic model, it starts at about 6 minutes in.

www.ted.com/talks/juno_mac_the_laws_that_sex_workers_really_want

We're all black lesbian teenaged single moms with cancer on the internet.

Cote says a lot of things. Cote says 'they' have a shockingly high IQ whilst also saying:

1. Pornography isn't prostitution

1. Most internet porn features pro bono exhibitionists

1. There's no trafficking into Amsterdam's brothels

1. The vast majority of prostitutes aren't expected to mingle body fluids and mucous membranes

I don't believe what Cote says has any validity.

I'm very sure Cote is a woman. She posts widely on feminist subjects and I generally agree with her views. Don't agree with this though. She's entitled to her opinion in any case, whatever I think.

Cote you're not an idiot so I don't know why you're acting like one. You're definitely not stupid enough to believe that prostitutes have the luxury of insisting on practices that protect them in any adequate way from infection. Even if condoms are worn, crabs, herpes and other STDs can still be passed on. Condoms break. Prostitutes frequently get raped. The idea that they can happily control the infection risk is so utterly ridiculous I can only assume you don't actually believe it but you're saying it for some other obscure reason.

Cote is definitely a woman - and as others have said, I agree with her on a lot of issues. Curious blind spot on this one, though.

Sparrowhawk does not believe that prostitutes have the luxury of insisting on practices that protect them in any adequate way from infection.

Sorry-you are wrong -yet again. The use of condoms for vaginal and anal sex is pretty much universal and has led to a decline in STIs over several years ( Ward,H et al. 2004 Declining prevalence of STI in the London sex industry, 1985 to 2002 Sex Transm Infect 2004;80:374–378. doi: 10.1136/sti.2003.009068) and although the levels of some STIs is higher in prostitutes than non-prostitutes the levels are still low (McGrath-Lone,L et al 2014 The sexual health of female sex workers compared with other women in England : analysis of cross-sectional data from genitourinary medicine clinics Sex Transm Infect 2014;90:344–350. doi:10.1136/sextrans-2013-051381).

(The links are the doi numbers)

Interestingly Migrant Female sex workers (FSWs) had better sexual health outcomes than UK-born FSWs.

In Australia where different states have different prostitution policies (ranging from illegal, legalized and decriminalized) it is the decriminalized regime where prostitute health is better(Harcourt,C et al 2010 The decriminalisation of prostitution is associated with better coverage of health promotion programs for sex workers Aust NZ J Public Health. 2010; 34:482-6 doi: 10.1111/j.1753-6405.2010.00594.x) and better health surveillance leads to better sexual health (Donovan,B et al 2010 Improving the health of sex workers in NSW: maintaining success. New South Wales public health bulletin 21,74-77 doi:10.1071/NB10013

The Abstract of which reads NSW has a diverse sex industry that is limited in its size by modest demand. There is no evidence that decriminalisation in 1995 increased the frequency of commercial sex in NSW. Though the largest sector, female brothels, is now mainly staffed by Asian women, condom use for vaginal and anal sex exceeds 99% and sexually transmissible infection rates are at historic lows. These gains are attributable to the long-term support of the NSW Department of Health in collaboration with the community-based Sex Workers Outreach Project and sexual health services, facilitated by the removal of criminal sanctions without the expense and access barriers of licensing systems.

Sparrowhawk pointed out that condoms aren't enough. And if you read Ophelia's post she said it's difficult for prostitutes to avoid having to offer oral sex without a condom.

It's like a masterclass in mansplaining

I understand this is not the case in most places, but I see that as the fault of criminalisation, which forces prostitution underground and in the hands of criminal gangs

I think that's very naive. As if all countries legitimised prostitution it would start being empowering instead of shitty, degrading and exploitative for the vast majority of women. As mentioned before, this is not what happened in the Netherlands and Germany.

amp.ibtimes.co.uk/why-amsterdams-prostitution-laws-are-still-failing-protect-empower-women-1467733

tangoman
LOL.
So prevalent condom use in vag/bum sex and a "FSW" measurable decline in STDs makes it fine and dandy to get cum in the "FSW" 's eyes for a facial climax instead.
Fine to stick your fist up her. Fine to get cum in her body via the tongue and throat. Does it balance out all of these acts because women are not spunked into via the vag/anus on a regular basis (although some are). ?

Condoms fail. (Need it be said).

Plus you have to stick a sponge up inside you for a week every month (menstuation) which can lead to problems including but not limited to BV and Trush. Most WGs can not afford to work only 3 weeks out of every 4.

The damage to women in sex work extends far and beyond the immediate circumstances surrounding a booking.

The damage even extends to other women who don't work in prostitution. Women overall. Because when legitimised, women are viewed as nothing but our sex appeal and our bodies and free to be damaged by what men want.

*The menstruation point also includes girls taking the pill constantly without a break which no Dr would recommend.

From the one of the London studies that Tango linked to:

^FSWs were almost twice as likely to be diagnosed with chlamydia, and three times more likely to be diagnosed with gonorrhoea than other female attendees, adjusting for demographic factors. As FSWs made more visits on average than other female attendees, this increased prevalence may have been linked to the higher number of opportunities FSWs had to be diagnosed. As our model did not adjust for number of visits, we also compared prevalence of STI diagnosis in those tested at first visit and found that FSWs were still twice as likely to be diagnosed with chlamydia (2.9% vs 1.3%, p

Just read this on Huffpo, love it
m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/15422732

Regardless of any studies (which do by the way show that prostitutes are more at risk from STDs than the general population) you'd have to be a total idiot to believe that a woman who needs money for rent, for her children, for her next fix, for her pimp, will be able to say no to a man who expects condom-free sex with her. Women get raped by their own partners in their thousands and thousands every year - how on earth could it be safer to be a prostitute dealing with strange men who feel entitled to sex??

I also find it utterly bizarre that on mumsnet you can have people arguing that a young girl wearing certain clothes or a woman drinking a lot of alcohol puts her at risk and she should be careful, while others argue that a prostitute going into a room with a man she doesn't know in order to have sex is perfectly safe and can insist on condoms etc etc etc It's like two completely different worlds. It makes me wonder if people see prostitutes as being human at all.

Fucking hell, dude, are you seriously monitoring mumsnet and making notes on this stuff? Have you got a spreadsheet?

Not at all creepy, nooooooo. Urgh, I feel like I need to take a shower just from reading your posts.

And if it helps, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to me if most prostitutes were actually your much-prized happy hookers. I would still fight legalisation tooth and nail, and I would still work towards an end to a world where men can buy women and children for sex, because that's a world in which women are chattel, and a world where male sexual entitlement is allowed to run unchecked. I think we can do better. Loads of people have jobs in sectors that are not good for society - polluting technologies, animal research, cigarette manufacturing - you can object to the output, and want it to stop without hating the people who do the job.

'In their advertisements prostitutes are clear what they do and do not do, penetrative sex without a condom is almost never on offer. Of course there are a few low-life punters who will boundary push or do thing like try to remove the condom-the prostitutes invariably throws them out and blacklists them'

So a 5 ft 5' woman will easily throw out an aggressive 6 ft man?

'There have been over a hundred current or exited prostitutes who have contributed to threads on Mumsnet over the past 12 years-and the experience span the spectrum from good to dire'

So the documented evidence is that while some people have good experiences, some have 'dire' experiences? And are those 'dire' experiences something women just have to live with?

Used to meet alot of prostitutes at work (vice squad) and they varied alot. Girls who were groomed by pimps and hooked on drugs, women who worked alone with their husband effectively their pimp although they seemed a curiously lazy group of men, women who ran their business very effectively and were shrewd about their money and planning for the future and their escape route. Unfortunately the last group was the smallest.

One thing I would say about street prostitution is that it appeared to age women rapidly. I would look at their first mug shot and then look at them and think they had aged 10, 15 or 20 years in 2 years. It isn't an easy life but obviously not all prostitutes are street prostitutes.

I generally found them to be nice people who had got in with the wrong man or found themselves on hardtimes. They don't have an easy life and I hate it when people condemn them.

I saw some sad things, teenage girls beaten with sticks for not making enough money for example but probably t.he one that upset me most was a teenager who was 9 months pregnant and in labour but still picking up punters. She had to be processed at speed so we could get her to hospital. Poor baby, what a start in life.

A balanced week in the life of a prostituted woman according to tangoman:

Sunday: got raped
Monday: had a swell day
Tuesday: caught gonorrhea
Wednesday: had a swell day
Thursday: had lit cigarette put to shoulder
Friday: had a swell day
Saturday: got raped

Some days you're raped or injured, some days you're not, it all evens out.

From the ever wonderful MacKinnon. She starts talking about 6.5 minutes in if you want to skip the intro. She nails her subject in the first few minutes and then builds on that. She is mega.

Arguments made by people like tangoman are just incredibly ridiculous it really makes me wonder why they're given any airtime at all. Of course the answer is that we live in a patriarchal society that will always privilege the views of men over women, no matter how utterly abhorrent they are.

Prostitution involves renting the use of another person's orifices. Most men wouldn't even consider renting their anus out to other men - they would find the idea absolutely repulsive. And yet there are still people who argue with a straight face that for women, renting their orifices is just a job, they don't find it unpleasant or uncomfortable or completely hideous. How is that even possible? How can anyone with a brain consider that to be true?

McKinnon has carried out enormous amounts of research on prostitution. Across the world, when asked 'what do you need' the response of 89% of prostitutes is 'to get out of prostitution.'