Laws that sex workers really want - anti-Nordic-model TED talk

[iismum]

A friend of mine just posted this video - it's a TED talk by a sex worker discussing how a NZ model is what (according to her) pretty much all sex workers want. She discredits full and partial criminalisation of sex work - which I quite agree with. She also talks about how the Nordic model is really bad for sex workers, whereas I support the Nordic model. But she made some interesting points - particularly how the Nordic model does not reduce the demand for sex work, it just makes it more dangerous and fosters more negative attitudes to sex workers. Is this really true?

I'd be really interested to hear people's thoughts about it. If you want to skip to what she says about the Nordic model, it starts at about 6 minutes in.

www.ted.com/talks/juno_mac_the_laws_that_sex_workers_really_want

Maybe punter promoters like Tango could be taken more seriously if they spent some time renting out their own orifices to all and sundry. A little personal experience could be enlightening.

tangoman - From your Washington Post link:

"A careful 2008 study of 329 sexually exploited youth in New York City for the National Institute for Justice, by researchers at John Jay College, found that the average age of entry into the sex trade was 15.15 years for females"

Average age of 15 for entry into prostitution isn't significantly better than 13.5. Your enthusiastic efforts to support the sexual exploitation of children on a parenting website are frankly despicable.

And you clearly know nothing about statistics. Average age of 13.5 would not mean "for every prostitute who started at 20 there must be one who stated at seven". It could easily mean for every prostitute who started at 20, there were 5 who started at 12. Statictical distribution is not always Gaussian.

Your patronising "just engage the brain and think about it for a nano-second" that precedes the false statement above just makes it all quite pathetic imho. Mansplaining mathematics just isn't your forté, I have to say.

And I say all that as someone who believes that criminalisation is a misguided and ineffective strategy. The goal should be to prevent exploitation and provide support, not forcing prostitutes to hide from the state.

And I say all that as someone who believes that criminalisation is a misguided and ineffective strategy. The goal should be to prevent exploitation and provide support, not forcing prostitutes to hide from the state

Do you support the NM then? I'm mostly supportive but I utterly agree with you here that the main issue is prevention.

Quite right TheSparrowhawk.

Prostitution is an institution based on the idea that men are entitled to sex and entitled to make money from girls and women providing that sex. The point of prostitution is not for women to be able to make money but for men to have sex and for other men to make money from that.

Any honest discussion about prostitution must consider this male entitlement. It must also consider the feminization of poverty in the world, the overwhelmingly gendered dynamic in prostitution (men are the consumers, the pimps, the traffickers and girls and women provide the sex) and the socialization and abuse of girls and women as the sex class in male dominated society.

Arguments about prostitution being a way for women to make money as though it is something that happens in a socio-political economic vacuum are always dishonest. We are so used to the idea that girls and women are for sex that even well meaning people will argue dishonestly about this. And then of course there are the ones who don't give a shit about girls and women who agree with the idea that men are entitled to sex and to pimping and that girls and women are there to provide sex and make money for pimps.

Nordic model where clients are considered criminals and prosecuted? No, I can't say that I support that model, as it forces prostitution to remain hidden in the shadows.

Prostitution needs to step out into the realm of legitimacy so that it can be tightly controlled and regulated - age of entry, safety, access to health services, activity in approved areas, without any pimps, trafficking, or forced prostitution.

" Mansplaining mathematics just isn't your forté, I have to say." Quote of the day, Cote .

Child prostitution statistics are mixed up with child abuse statistics.

Bit out of date news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6960232.stm

The children in the Rochdale and Croydon were, effectively prostituted as well.

I don't know what is happening, but the text screen keeps disappearing whenever I try to write a post.

CoteDAzur
In the Nordic Model, the prostituted are decriminalised - they are free to patrol in the wide open spaces, soliciting without inhibition because they are doing nothing illegal. They have no need to hide in shadows and can have their own blatant signs above their heads if they wish.
It is the punters who have to double their efforts to behave furtively. And of course the pimps. Seedy fuckers they all are, probably are well versed in this any way.

The idea that Prostitution needs to step out into the realm of legitimacy is such an odd thing to say.
so that it can be tightly controlled and regulated how can you tightly control and regulate something like that?
age of entry pimps know that it is far easier to access, manipulate and coerce vulnerable children into prostitution, pretending to be their boyfriends, etc, than adult women, and they also know that there is an demand for pretty little girls in make-up to look like adult women to be consumed by punters. This will not be stopped with legalisation - it will just become more legitimate and accepted.
safety
How you can safely be abused in prostitution is a paradox. It is never possible. Paying someone to suffer unwanted sexual contact is paying to sexually abuse them. Abuse is harmful psychologically and also physically. It is intrinsically unsafe. All the other things that might happen at the hands of someone who pays to sexually abuse you are an increased risk in a private space with them where you are accepting money for them to act their possible violent fantasy on your body as the mood takes them.
access to health services
Nothing stopping the decriminialised prostituted people strolling around in broad daylight accessing services - or by 'access' do you mean subjected to screening in order to make sure the punters don't catch stds?
activity in approved areas
This is sickening. In Germany they are approving of increasingly degrading places for the purchase of women's bodies. Just because you don't want women being bought and sold on the corner on your street, doesn't mean you 'approve' of it happening in degrading cow sheds.
without any pimps
This is really ignorant. Brothel owners are just glorified pimps in a legal situation.
trafficking
How do you prevent trafficking with legalisation? You prevent trafficking by going out and prosecuting trafficking rings, not allowing them to exist with polished head offices with plaques on the door.
or forced prostitution
If it looks legal and legit, how do you know if it is forced? The force is not always- gun-to-the-head force, it can be emotional manipulation, forced by poverty, etc.

Doughnut

OK - lets regulate it, I'm going to go ahead and guess that demand for prostitutes will go down, and the cost to hire one will go up significantly once they have to follow standard health and safety procedures around body fluids:

www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/download/comms/cg1_nhsp_standard_infection_control_precautions_v3.pdf

as of course will their cleaning staff:

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/oce23.pdf

Go for it. I'm all for that kind of prositution. Then we can start prosecuting the people that run the brothels under H&S legislation? The men that try to pay prostitutes not to follow those procedures? We'll have outreach workers there handing out the plastic aprons and white wellies for the prostitutes?

That's what regulation should mean. Making it safe for the people involved, thats the only way that I'd support it. Or do you mean we just carry on as we are, with prostituted women taking unbelievable risks to their health so that men can orgasm? Doesn't sound safe to me.

Guardian - "In the Nordic Model, the prostituted are decriminalised - they are free to patrol in the wide open spaces, soliciting without inhibition because they are doing nothing illegal.. It is the punters who have to double their efforts to behave furtively."

You don't seem to realise that those two statements are in contradiction. A prostitute in that situation can't operate openly because clients will not visit a clearly marked and advertised brothel that is protected by the system, in an area with CCTVs etc because they would fear prosecution.

"The idea that Prostitution needs to step out into the realm of legitimacy is such an odd thing to say. so that it can be tightly controlled and regulated how can you tightly control and regulate something like that?"

I'm sorry that you can't get your head around it. People said the same thing for alcohol back in the time of Prohibition. They say the same thing about cannabis now and I suppose are rather perplexed by it being decriminalised around the world, regulated, and controlled, with no increase in criminality or addiction.

As the state, the only way you can regulate and control an activity is if you decriminalise it. You can't do it when service providers and clients know that the activity needs to be hidden from you.

"easier to access, manipulate and coerce vulnerable children into prostitution, pretending to be their boyfriends, etc, than adult women, and they also know that there is an demand for pretty little girls.. This will not be stopped with legalisation - it will just become more legitimate and accepted"

Not true. You are making that up based on your own fears and prejudices.

"How you can safely be abused in prostitution is a paradox."

If you believe all prostitution is abuse than it may not be possible to talk to you rationally on this subject.

"Brothel owners are just glorified pimps in a legal situation."

As someone who was involved in a formal research project about prostitution in Amsterdam, who has spoken to many prostitutes and visited quite a few brothels, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

"How do you prevent trafficking with legalisation?"

I don't think you quite understand the implications of allowing prostitution to operation like a legitimate business. How do you prevent child labour? How do you prevent illegals working in any establishment? There are controls, audits, surprise visits that allow authorities to ensure legal employment parameters, which are only possible if those businesses operate above board.

choc I think will be the fitting greeting for the punters who pay to release their effluent

mmmmm Thank you for answering Cote. I've also been involved in research on prostitution and my worry is that there will always be something not out in the open ... the trafficked women, underage, serious kink stuff. And when it is in the open the state often becomes the default pimp.

I'm also of the opinion that prostitution needs to stop because of the bigger part ot plays in women's subjugation.

But mostly I argue for a holistic welfare state that might prevent prostitution, even as someone who is taxed quite highly, because I'd prefer to see prevention rather than cure.

A prostitute in that situation can't operate openly because clients will not visit a clearly marked and advertised brothel that is protected by the system, in an area with CCTVs etc because they would fear prosecution.
Hi cote some women much prefer the autonomy and control they have to assess, reject and escape from punters they have in street-based prostitution - rather than locked inside a room with one.

Currently kerb-crawling is illegal right? So what I have witnessed on my way to work , in broad daylight, in a fairly busy street from the upper deck of the bus, is the woman on the street behaves in slightly odd hair-flicky, make-up adjusting ways, the bloke in the car makes an obscene gesture to his mouth with his hand, she gestures to pull up around the corner.

If the police do a sting, both of them will be arrested. With the NM only the bloke would be arrested.

I would love a bit more detail on what you mean by protected by the system - and why you seem to think that the corporate trappings of clear demarcation, advertising, CCTV, etc - that enable business owners increased sales of their goods and protection from theft, make an individual prostitute [who is herself 'the goods']safer.

I'm sorry that you can't get your head around it. People said the same thing for alcohol back in the time of Prohibition. They say the same thing about cannabis now and I suppose are rather perplexed by it being decriminalised around the world, regulated, and controlled, with no increase in criminality or addiction.

Since I called you doughnut, its only fair to get some sort of insult back. But you see - I can and never will reconcile this notion that a human person's body is a substance for personal consumption by another person. And I will never reconcile that a human person's body can be bought and sold as though it is a substance [ie - human beings are complex conscious living beings, not a lifeless substance you can stick in a glass or a bong to be consumed]. And it is obvious that you can not measure and mete out a human person's bodily access as though it is a substance. So how is it comparable?

As the state, the only way you can regulate and control an activity is if you decriminalise it.

How do you decide which criminal activities need to be 'regulated and controlled'? Theft? Assault? Murder? Fraud? Drunk-driving? Slavery? Drug-moling?
Why is it more important to you that prostitution is regulated and controlled than other crimes?

Go to www.insideoutsidescotland.info to read the stories from 6 women in or recently left prostitution in Scotland. They mention what they think is needed. None of them want full decriminalisation of the sex industry.

If you believe all prostitution is abuse than it may not be possible to talk to you rationally on this subject.

I have very clear lines and boundaries on this matter:
If you want to do something to someone physically, irrespective of whether they wish you to do it, and you go ahead and do it, you are being abusive. If that person accepts a payment from you, doesn't make it less abusive.
Abusive behaviour doesn't require the recipient's awareness of being abused, for it to be defined as abuse. The culpability sits entirely with the abuser.

CoteDAzur's speculation has already been proven incorrect by the current existence of the legal multi-billion dollar pornography industry in 2017.

None of what CoteDAzur speculates will happen if prostitution is legal nd regulated has happened with the massive normalization of the legalized filmed prostitution industry over the past few decades.

Porn in literally in the hands of millions of people, there are entire shops dedicated to porn in thousands of cities, and porn has infiltrated global popular culture as never before in history...yet the stigma against sexual women remains as strong - if not stronger - than ever before. Young men deciding to go on mass killings targeting women because the world didn't deliver the subservient pussy that years of watching pornography promised them did not used to happen every couple of months in the USA.

The porn industry has proven Andrea Dworkin and other radical feminists are right and defenders of legal, regulated prostitution are wrong.

Yes. Are pornographic film stars today more able to find work in high-paying jobs without stigma from their former profession than when pornography was underground? I think not. Are parents more likely to think it's just fine for their daughter to become a porn star? Nope. Has legalizing and regulating pornography helped get rapists off the set so "bad actor" and "bad director" lists can be created and women will "vote with their feet" not to be in movies with them? No, not at all, women are raped on-set all the time, often by the industry's biggest names.

Making pornography a legal, regulated industry hasn't even made conditions better for porn stars, much less for the rest of us.

As someone who was involved in a formal research project about prostitution in Amsterdam, who has spoken to many prostitutes and visited quite a few brothels

If you go into a research project with certain strange prejudices such as:

A woman and her body is of the same order of thing as an intoxicating substance, and therefore can be regulated in a similar way

Prostitution is a business that should be regulated' like any other business, rather than, 'prostitution is a lucrative activity, similar to drug and gun trafficking, fraud and other scams.

Sexual acts between the prostitute and punter bear more similarity to service provisions such as waiting tables, than to abusive acts like incest, rape and other sex crimes. Therefore when the prostitute is subjected to or performing unwanted sex acts they are providing a 'service' and the punter who has paid for this is a 'client'.

Then how can your research be without bias?
If, to conduct research you go in through the front door of these brothels, who are used to regulators walking through them, they will all be very well versed in the right thing to say to give the right impression. What efforts did you take to speak to the prostitutes in an 'off the record', 'away from the office' way, to find out their true feelings and experiences on everything?

Also, where is your evidence that the legal sex trade will end the illegal sex trade? I heard it only increased it. Did you seek out anyone in the illegal sex trade in Holland for your research?

Yet - re "my worry is that there will always be something not out in the open ... the trafficked women, underage, serious kink stuff"

That might not be avoidable. There will always be stuff that is inacceptable/illegal that remains underground. The point is that we can control & regulate whatever is overboard, which will be most of the industry.

"I'm also of the opinion that prostitution needs to stop because of the bigger part ot plays in women's subjugation."

I am not disagreeing. Would the world be a better place without any prostitution? Probably yes. Realistically, is prostitution going to cease to exist? No, it won't. Just like with alcohol and drugs, our strategy needs to be how best to manage it, protect its workers & clients, and make it safe.

Guardian - re "some women much prefer the autonomy and control they have to assess, reject and escape from punters they have in street-based prostitution - rather than locked inside a room with one"

When prostitution is legal and open, prostitutes can work openly in the same place and benefit from their own security system (alarms, bouncers, etc). Walking the streets it definitely not the safest it can get for a prostitute.

"what I have witnessed on my way to work"

I can't say and don't particularly care, to be honest.

Enid thank you for posting Rae Story's article.
One of the women, Ailsa, a former prostitute puts a very good argument against full decrim:

“Honestly, I think it comes down to a normalisation of sex buying as an acceptable practice. When we see something as OK we are more accepting of it and more likely to do it, demand therefore balloons and there are not enough women under-privileged enough to enter the sex trade without coercive forces; it is inevitable that trafficking follows to feed the newly increased demand for women’s bodies. It creates a legitimised market for both buyers and traffickers and turns the pimp into the reputable business man peddling flesh. It’s evident that keeping women on their backs is profitable by just looking at the organisation and people who support it (madams, pimps, pornographers, traffickers). It’s sick that this argument even exists.”

The legalisation in Germany seems to mirror this with horror stories of women in the mega brothels

I much prefer ChocChoc's vision of biohazard suits, but we know which outcome is more likely.