Man walks free from court after statutory rape

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Saw this news case today, and am not sure what I think:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

I feel that it gives the message that it's ok for men not to worry about the age of girls/women they have sex with if they have reasonable grounds to believe they're 16+.

Nancy, as you know if you read what I said, the "extreme idea" I was referring to is the notion put forward by some that anyone who is not 100% sure of their partner's age should, if said partner turns out to be under 16, be found guilty, jailed and considered a sex offender. As you also know, that is not the law as it currently stands. Teenagers who make a reasonable assessment of their partner's age are not guilty of a crime even if their assessment is wrong and the person turn out to be under 16. They are guilty by strict liability if the person turns out to be under 13, but the law still makes provision for unusual circumstances, as in this case.

It is possible to verify someone's age, particularly with teenagers, when you can find out what school they're at and what year they're in. It's only an issue if you're going to have sex straight away, before you've a chance to find out.

You can only "find out" for sure if you check with the school/parents. You can't "find out" by just asking someone what year they're in. People lie.

Like what?

Like this:
Generally people meet in a bar/club/party and go home together. They do have a bit of time to assess the other person.

There is no way you can know for sure how old someone is if you meet in those circumstances and go home together after spending "a bit of time" assessing each other. You can be reasonably sure, which is the test the law currently sets. But anyone doing what you described would fail the 100% test that some have suggested should be applied.

And the reason I keep saying "teenagers" instead of just people/adults is not because I think teenagers aren't expected to obey the law but because the risk that a partner is underage only really applies to that age group, well teens and early twenties. There comes a point when you can be sure just based on looks alone because no one under 16 is going to look 40 or 50.

It's not an 'extreme idea' it's just the law.

If a teenager is over 18 as this one was - if they make a 'reasonable assessment' that they're partner is over 16 but they're not sure, if they are wrong they are open to a charge of sexual activity with a child. If their partner turns out to be under 13 they are open to a charge of rape. Which is why we're here.

You will have a pretty good idea just from knowing what year they're in, as in this case. When a sex offence is on the line, it's really worth taking the trouble.

If he'd got her number, talked to her on the phone, looked on Facebook the next day, noted what year she was in, he'd have figured it out very quickly.

Orchids

Actually, there are very, very rare cases (where there is a medical condition) where younger teens can look middle aged.

I don't think we should be shaping law or policy around those potentially rare circumstances (and I'm sure you agree) but I suppose they are a theoretical extreme example of when strict liability can be flawed.

A 12 yo isn't even supposed to be on FaceBook.

There is no way you can know for sure how old someone is if you meet in those circumstances and go home together after spending "a bit of time" assessing each other.

I'm pretty certain I could tell a 12 year old wasn't 16 after spending some time conversing with them.

No win
rightly attach significant weight to the evidence of two police officers

Just for the record, are you aware that police officers can be known to lie in court?

They may not have lied, but I would never attach too much weight to what they may not have recognised about this girl, when they were looking for another girl (maybe with a photo?), and it was night anyway.

Generally people meet in a bar/club/party and go home together. They do have a bit of time to assess the other person.

If they're weren't 100% sure in that scenario then they didnt have sex with them that night. Once you're over 18 having sex with an under 16 year old is a really big deal. Tbh i can't think of a scenario in which we ever came even remotely close to having sex with someone underage at all full stop.

I think any accusations of prudishness comes from having no argument

Yes.

Often too I think the so called prudish are the ones who in reality have a much higher standard in their expectations and experience of how sex can be.

I would be willing to guess that there was nothing so great about the un-prudish sex in this case - especially for the 12 year old girl.

Just for the record, are you aware that police officers can be known to lie in court?
Yes of course I'm aware. But if, in any case, you have uncontested witness evidence from two police officers, who aren't parties to the proceedings, then the judge is going to accept that evidence. It would be absurd not to and would likely lead to an appeal if it occurred.

I agree with the blog linked by other posters, even if she looked older with her clothes on, when she undressed it would have been more obvious she was underage but I'm sure by that stage he didn't want to stop. Maybe he even liked it.

When I was about 14/15 camera phones were just starting to become widely available, and I remember texting nudes to older boys who very carefully didn't ask my exact age but would make comments about my "perky young breasts" and things like that. My best friend lost her virginity at 13 to one of these boys. Maybe he didn't know her precise age but he knew he was in sixth form and she wasn't and looking back he did take advantage.

When I was older (over 16) I did have casual sex, but with friends of friends I'd met at house parties or wherever, not total strangers (this was less than 10 years ago). A lot of people around my age think I was very promiscuous as a teen. I don't know anyone who thinks that sex with a total stranger at 18/19 is usual/normal.

Plus if people really are that desperate, we have apps like tinder specifically designed for the purpose, which list your age. It's not fool proof but it's surely more reliable than " I thought she looked 16 and I asked my mate".

I do think he has culpability. I don't think he knew she was 12 necessarily, but I think he may have suspected she was younger and not cared. There's a conspiracy of plausible deniability about rape among men (obligatory #notallmen) and this is part of it.

I don't believe him.

Sorry, just to be clear, I mean I think he may have suspected she was younger than 16.

I do think he holds more blame than the police officers/taxi driver although the police also failed her. The sexualisation of young girls may mean older men are less good at judging the ages of teenagers.

LadyLance
I missed that link but have just read it. It is excellent and puts everything so well in a way I could not articulate. If anyone else missed it before, here it is:
jeanhatchet.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/a-childhood-defined-by-appearance.html?m=1

I agree KindDogsTail It's a superb read and just expresses my feelings on this so eloquently.

The sexualisation of young girls may mean older men are less good at judging the ages of teenagers.

I don't believe this. I think older men know full well, just like any other human at a developmental stage what constitutes a 12 year old. The 19 year old wanted sex with a 12 year old.

When I was 9, 12 year old's were sophisticated. When I was 16 they were a pita and immature. I would not have been seen dead out with them socially. I much preferred my own age and older.

When my daughter was 12ish she had a womans body

Mentally she was 12ish (a bit younger probably) and a few minutes conversation would have given her true age

Especially as she wouldnt have been able to keep up any sort of lie

Elendon I agree that he wanted sex with an underage girl, or he didn't care if she was underage or not and just wanted sex. I think he has gotten off extraordinarily lightly, and actually some higher court should consider whether the sentencing in this case is actually OK or not.

I don't actually see why this is an exceptional case at all. As many people have said, it's not uncommon for young girls to look older than they are, especially if they're tall or hit puberty early. Surely an exceptional case is where the child has a medical condition that makes judging their age very difficult.

Rufus I don't think any 12yo has a woman's body. They may have hit puberty, and started to develop, but I think without clothes on it's obvious to tell the difference. I agree conversation would let him know that she was younger than 16, and I don't think he cared at all about her age.

Hmm about the only thing that would make give me credence to the notion that a few minutes of casual conversation wouldn't betray her true age is advancing an argument that precious few adults behave grown up these days.

Funnily enough, I'm not a big fan of the bloggers comments about the legal profession.

There is a difference between saying that a judgment or sentence is legally correct (or within the scope of a range of legally correct decisions), and asking whether the law is fit for purpose.

Statutes are written and implemented by the government, not by judges or barristers. Judges have a duty to determine the facts, on the evidence presented, and apply the law of the country. I think the judge did that (although there's still a discussion to be had about the sentencing, within the existing guidelines, because there is a degree of judicial discretion there).

If people want greater, legal protection for vulnerable children, or want tougher sentencing guidelines, then it's the government that needs to change it. Women's groups, lawyers, and regular Joe Public can all lobby the government for tighter laws.

The legal profession should play a role in pushing for legal reform where its required, but it cannot do it alone. If we do need a change in the law, we need to discuss as a society what that should look like.

And if judges and barristers are being misled by untruthful police officers, we need to see how that can be improved too (body cameras maybe?)

Is the view in here that the law surrounding rape is okay, but sentencing guidelines are not? Or is the law insufficient? If so, how can it be improved? Or do we think that the law and sentencing guidelines are both sufficient, but disagree with how the judge applied them*?

Just for absolute clarity, I'm not being rhetorical here. Where there's a problem with the law itself, then we need to identify the problem precisely before we can try to fix it.

*if the view is that the law and sentencing guidelines are fine, but that the individual judge's attitude towards rape victims is the problem, then I agree that it's more the legal systems' problem than anything. Personally that's not what I see in this case, based on the evidence the judge was required to rule on, but I'm no authority on the subject.

lady

I am telling you now that her body hasnt changed

Actually i lie at 12 she was a 28D bra cup...i have a feeling she is now an E as her bras dont fit anymore

I am happy to agree that not many 12 year olds are like that (although a child in ds2 year is the same although she is nearly 6ft tall)

But it really shouldnt matter what she looked like

The police were involved in an 'incident' with dd, they said that on CCTV while out with two other friends that dd was 'targeted'

I believe she was targeted as her friends really did look like little girls and she (as the youngest, just,) didnt

And i know how lovely you all are on here so to stop anyone worrying dd wasnt traumatised, although she was scared at the time and she has forgotten all about it. It was very 'mild'

NoWinNoFfi It specifically says in the Sexual Offenses (Scotland) Act 2009 that "It is not a defense to a charge in proceedings under any of sections 14 to 19b that A believed B to have attained the age of 13 years". Section 14 is the section that defines "rape of a young child", the crime that the man has been convicted of.

I'm not expert on the law, and I understand he plead guilty, but if it isn't a defense to say she looked older, how can it be taken into account when she was sentencing? Essentially, it doesn't/shouldn't matter how old he thought she was, he should get a standard sentence for someone convicted of this crime who isn't expected to be a risk to the wider community. I don't think people in this situation are usually given an absolute discharge.

I think the problem is two-fold:

1. the appearance of the child in this case should not be relevant to the sentence given, and it seems like there may be a problem with this judge specifically. I feel the sentence specifically in this case is far too lenient, and I don't understand why it was given, when "She looked older" is not a defense. I do not think the judge has acted to "protect young girls". It doesn't matter if she appeared to consent, either.

2. In general, the sentencing for rapists is far too light, particularly if it is seen as a "one off". I don't think an "absolute discharge" should be allowed in these circumstances, but it's part of a wider problem in society that seems to view rape as something that almost happens by accident. What other crimes happen where the victim is accused of ruining the criminal's life if they report it?

Rufus I agree whatever she looked like shouldn't matter, and no-one should be subject to harassment or "targeting" regardless of age. I'm sorry that happened to your DD, and I'm glad that she is OK .

That said, I'm a 30E bra size, and my breasts changed a lot between when I grew them at 14, and when I was 16/17, as did other parts. With clothes off, I think it's easier to tell, and I think men who target that kind of girl can tell.

It doesn't matter anyway though, because believing she is older is not a defense and at 12, no matter how she acted, she did not consent.

But I do believe he knew what he was doing up to a point.

Oh i agree with you lady

I think he probably knew she was under 16

He was 19 and not far away from having lied about his own age to get into pubs and clubs and movies

And even if he never lied about his age himself he sure as fuck had friends who did

Some of you have clearly read around then law on this. Is there secondary legislation or judicial guidance that gives more detail on what was intended as exceptional circumstances? I cannot believe government would have intended it to be about simply "looking" older. Despite the string of witnesses, that's all this case has.

Re the blog, i personally find her description of sex and how he viewed the child irritated me. I get the sentiment but the argument does not depend on an assessment of the child's body and frankly it feels like it is written for shock value, and borders on gratuitous speculative detail. This approach does not help reasoned consideration of what has gone wrong imo.

Disclaimer, i wholeheartedly believe this man should have been sentenced and this case makes the law a nonesense.

I am a massive fan of Jean Hatchet