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Original poster

Man walks free from court after statutory rape

999 replies

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/03/2017 17:18

Saw this news case today, and am not sure what I think:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

I feel that it gives the message that it's ok for men not to worry about the age of girls/women they have sex with if they have reasonable grounds to believe they're 16+.

OP posts:
StealthPolarBear · 19/03/2017 15:30

I am not talking about his sentence. I am talking about the attitude of many many posters who seem to think it is inevitable that the odd man will have sex with a child because she looks older. And lies. And that it's just one of those things. I personally think that grown men should be expected to apply the same level of care to having sex as they do to driving, and not excused when they don't.

MrsDustyBusty · 19/03/2017 15:33

I personally think that grown men should be expected to apply the same level of care to having sex as they do to driving, and not excused when they don't.

This is the thing I find astonishing as well, the idea that men are absolved of a moral and ethical duty of care towards children if they want to have sex.

TheFallenMadonna · 19/03/2017 15:40

As I am not a judge, and do not have any knowledge of sentencing guidelines, I can't suggest an actual sentence. I also accept that, in so far as he considered it, he thought she was 16, and that he adminted it straight away. However, think the seriousness of the crime deserves a more significant sentence than none at all.

cadnowyllt · 19/03/2017 15:48

I personally think that grown men should be expected to apply the same level of care to having sex as they do to driving, and not excused when they don't.

I think the reasoning of the Judge was that it was not in the public interest, having decided that the convicted man did not have a 'guilty mind', that he should therefore have a conviction of rape on his criminal record.

I have a criminal conviction for driving without consideration for other road users (similar to driving without due care ), yet I never found it to be a problem - the other road users were fox hunters. A conviction for rape might well have been.

cadnowyllt · 19/03/2017 15:51

I've omitted the 'not' - he should therefore not have a conviction of rape on his criminal record.

StealthPolarBear · 19/03/2017 15:56

You're looking at it from his perspective. Looking at it from the perspective that, regardless of his motivations, the result was sex with a child, do you still think statutory rape isn't right?
These sorts of things are always concerned with the motivation of the man, the impact of conviction or sentence on the man etc. Not usually the experience of the girl or woman or the impact of being raped on her.

Elendon · 19/03/2017 16:13

But 12 year old girls are protected against having penetrative sex, whether they want it or not under the law. It is there for their protection.

This child was raped. The exonerating excuse seems to be that she was a few months off being 13 and that a taxi driver thought she was 20. The taxi driver obviously has a degree in deciphering the age of young women and girls.

Oh and of course the police all agreed that she was 16. Handy that.

Elendon · 19/03/2017 16:15

In fact the Taxi driver and the police disagreed regarding assuming her age. So who would you believe? The taxi driver or the Police?

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 19/03/2017 16:20

elendon

Back of a taxi with other people on a dark night ?

Taxi driver all the way...

cadnowyllt · 19/03/2017 16:20

Its right and proper that a sentencing judge should take into account the effect that the offence has on the victim. Normally the Judge is informed about such within a victims statement. Was there a statement in this case - I don't know. Maybe there was - and given the facts of the case, its possible the child asked the judge to be lenient. A judge has to weigh many factors in the balance when deciding on a particular sentence. Its not an easy job and not for everyone.

As for the child in this case, I hope that Social Service were immediately brought in to access her needs - there are serious questions to be asked about her welfare.

StealthPolarBear · 19/03/2017 16:24

How can they access her needs?
Genuine question - wpuld a 12 year olds view of the impact on her be taken seriously? On the one hand Id like to think her views would be listened to (even if if that was calls for leniency) however Im concerned that a 12 year old, no matter how busty or eloquent, is not in a position to assess the short and long term impact of intercourse and sexual activity on a child - even if she is that child iyswim. For the same reasons as she 'consented' in the first place.
I also worry about the message sent to her "tell us it wasn't that bad"
But that might just be my paranoia.

StealthPolarBear · 19/03/2017 16:28

After all if she was 8 and saying it was what she wanted, fully consensual, she enjoyed it, no long term harm etc then id like to think those views would be discounted entirely. What is the cut off - I'd assumed 13?
just to be clear I am completely and utterly in support of children and young people expressing views and being listened to about health and other issues that affect them. But age and competency appropriate I have a 9 year old. If he tells me he wants to play the drums instead of the flute, fine. If he tells me he wants to eat McDonald's every day, I tell him that's lovely but not going to happen.

NoWinNoFfi · 19/03/2017 16:38

Elendon - can you spell out what you're trying to imply about the police?

cadnowyllt · 19/03/2017 16:38

I don't know how much 'weight' the judge would have /ought to have given to a victim statement - some surely.

Social workers receive training in relation to accessing children's needs. Certainly, if parents cannot put their children's need before their own, then the local authority will apply to the family court for a care order - would the remainder of her childhood in foster care be better for this poor child ?

Yoshimihere · 19/03/2017 16:41

The role of the victims personal statement is imo somewhat dubious. My knowledge is dated (someone may correct me on this)but previously victims often thought it carried more weight in terms of sentencing than it did. Sometimes victims want to be heard but sometimes they are doing it because they think it will directly impact the sentence. Sentencing guidelines may have changed. But pretty sure changes wouldn't go as far as allowing victims to make requests re sentence.

Regardless of whether there is a statement or the contents, the judge is required to consider the impact on the victim and decide how to factor that in. I haven't read the sentencing remarks. I wonder what was said about the impact.

TheFallenMadonna · 19/03/2017 16:41

I think it would be completely inappropriate to take any statement from the girl regarding impact into account in this case. I think to do so would show a profound lack of understanding of children.

Elendon · 19/03/2017 16:42

What really strikes me as sad about threads like this is that it's always the conduct of the person who was raped that is called into question. She looked older being the obvious 'excuse'.

Nothing about how we can identify rapists. What does a rapist look like?

StealthPolarBear · 19/03/2017 16:44

I don't understand at all what you mean by accessing her needs. Do you mean meeting her needs?

Elendon · 19/03/2017 16:45

NoWin see previous posts of mine on this thread.

All the police agreed she was sixteen. They would do that, wouldn't they?

Moussemoose · 19/03/2017 16:45

Cadnowyllt one of the problems with these cases is that the girl may very strongly want to stay where she is. She may want to go to clubs and have sex with strangers. Removing her may be more damaging than leaving her where she is.
Social workers can assess her needs but there is probably not enough funding to support those needs. This is high intervention, high cost family support.
One of the reasons the police despair is because the victims deeply resent the help they are being given. It can be very demoralising.

Elendon · 19/03/2017 16:48

So how can young people identify a rapist? Males and females can be raped.

One identifying criteria is Male. And then what? Because not all males are rapists, far from it. Most men will not rape. So what identifies a male as being a rapist?

Is it the clothes he wears?

NoWinNoFfi · 19/03/2017 16:54

*see previous posts of mine on this thread.

All the police agreed she was sixteen. They would do that, wouldn't they?*
I have seen your posts. I still don't understand. Are you saying that the police on the night did actually think she was younger than 16, but decided to let her stay out anyway? Where's your evidence?

Elendon · 19/03/2017 17:04

NoWin

How would identify a rapist?

Do you not agree with me that sometimes the police will agree on a certain point?

Do you not agree with me that sometimes, even if they all agree on that certain point they get it wrong?

Moussemoose · 19/03/2017 17:07

Everyone gets it wrong sometimes.

Elendon · 19/03/2017 17:08

Also NoWin did you not see the replies to those posts?

I'm thinking along the lines of Ian Tomlinson and Menezes. The police were right weren't they?

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