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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Transwoman found dead in prison.

54 replies

TheCunkOfPhilomena · 05/01/2017 19:12

Am I alone in worrying that this may lead to more people identifying as women being allowed access to women's prisons as a result of this?

The statistics of suicide in prison are soaring, this is obviously an issue that needs addressing, but I can't help but fear that Swift's death will be used by trans lobbyists to endanger women only safe spaces.

Link for more info and see how it is already being spun by the MSM

OP posts:
DeviTheGaelet · 05/01/2017 22:35

RTFT amo. This person was identifying as a man when he murdered someone, less than 2 months ago. He was taking self prescribed hormones.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 05/01/2017 22:37

They/their helps avoid the MNHQ misgendering banhammer, Bejazzled (assuming that was directed at my posts).

DeviTheGaelet · 05/01/2017 22:41

Oops sorry for misgendering

ArcheryAnnie · 05/01/2017 22:43

At least 10 women died by their own hand last year in prison, and yet I can't remember a single one of them being reported as news. Women prisoners just don't seem to matter.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 05/01/2017 22:44

I think you're probably OK in this case given the BBC's reporting on it.

DeviTheGaelet · 05/01/2017 22:51

archery none of the multitude of non-trans people in mens prisons get reported on either. This is being reported as some kind of anomaly.
Given it seems the person was about to face their charge being changed from attempted murder to murder I'm not sure there is anything to suggest their gender status was linked to their suicide.
I thought that about the two last year too.

bearfishdoodle · 05/01/2017 23:38

I find it worrying that this has been framed as a suicide caused by a trans woman being placed in a male prison when suicide is a huge problem within prisons regardless of sex, this person was self medicating and so wouldn't expect to be prescribed meds in prison and as Devi says, was about to have their charge made significantly worse in terms of sentencing if found guilty.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/01/2017 10:23

It does seem that the only deaths worth reporting on - or pressing for action on - are those of prisoners charged with very violent crimes who then identify as women. Meanwhile women prisoners, the overwhelming majority of whom are nonviolent, die by their own hand and nobody appears to give a shit (except for places like here). But then nobody generally gives a shit about them when they are alive, either.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/01/2017 10:27

Oh, and the two prisoners who died last year and who were indentified in the news as "trans" - despite one of them only stating this shortly before they died, having a track record of random grand pronouncements designed to piss the authorities off, not having any history whatsoever of gender nonconformity, and in any case being so horrifically dangerous they would have never been housed in a women's prison because the facilities don't exist, in the main, for prisoners of that level of risk to be housed in the women's estate - are getting more airtime, too, despite the ten women who died last year never being mentioned.

Violent people with male bodies: always, always more deserving than women.

MadamMinna · 06/01/2017 13:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 06/01/2017 14:04

"Trans women are women tho"

Let me guess: Your 1st time on a MN trans thread? Smile

Original poster
TheCunkOfPhilomena · 06/01/2017 15:53

Madam I agree. Scary isn't it?

OP posts:
ITCouldBeWorse · 06/01/2017 16:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WankingMonkey · 06/01/2017 18:15

I saw the Guardian article on this and they said Swift had requested to be transferred to an annexe where there were other trans prisoners

Surely this is the answer anyway...

Trans women do not belong in female prisons. Those who have actually had surgery and such could be at risk in a male prison. But the answer is not to throw them in the female one. It is to create separate spaces for them, so they are safe, whilst allowing others to be safe also.

WankingMonkey · 06/01/2017 18:20

When you have a situation where 2 people a week commit suicide in prison every week, the first reaction to this needs to be "how do we improve conditions within the prison estate?" and not "well this particular violent criminal shouldn't have been placed in the male estate because they wore a frock".

Also 100% agree with this.

Not really sure why a trans persons suicide is any more (or less) important than any other suicide..

ArcheryAnnie · 06/01/2017 20:34

This article made me rage: www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-woman-prison-suicide-jenny-swift-doncaster-misgendering-can-kill-a7513441.html

"...misgendering isn't a 'special snowflake situation', it's a form of violence which can kill" says the headline. Well, stabbing someone, as Swift did, is a form of violence which can (and did) kill too, but this Indy journo seems very quick to forget that.

DeviTheGaelet · 06/01/2017 21:15

It's just bullshit bingo, the commenters are having none of it either....

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 07/01/2017 01:32

"Trans women do not belong in female prisons. Those who have actually had surgery and such could be at risk in a male prison. But the answer is not to throw them in the female one. It is to create separate spaces for them, so they are safe, whilst allowing others to be safe also."

I agree, this is the way forward. Trans people deserve their own spaces.

Wolpertinger · 07/01/2017 10:29

There are many male and female prisoners who commit suicide in prisons each year- this does not get reported on.

The priosn service is only allowed to categorise prisoners as trans - this covers everything from people with a full GRC, to those men doing a bit of cross-dressing and wearing a bit of makeup. They are all dumped in the bracket of 'trans'. Clearly, not all of these are 'trans women' who should be in a women's prison.

Then you have those where their trans identity is linked to their offending. I go to my local sex offenders prison through work and they have a number of prisoners categorised as trans women there. Not one is ever going to be housed in a womens prison for reasons I hope are obvious.

Trans women in prisons are a very different group to trans women not in prisons and putting them in with the women, or even making a special trans prison for them are not going to solve the problem. It also diverts attention from the far far bigger problem that prisons are killing men and women in general from suicide, not just trans ones.

ProcrastinatingSquid2 · 08/01/2017 11:19

My partner and I were discussing the Independent article yesterday. There's so much hyperbole in it. There are so few trans prisoners and so few trans prisoner suicides that it's impossible to spot a trend with such small numbers, so we can't really state with any confidence that this is some kind of pandemic.
Also trans people in genreal are much more likely to attempt or commit suicide, so we would perhaps expect a higher rate of trans prisoners committing suicide and it needn't be linked to prison conditions.
Also, iirc, the prisoner had been charged with attempted murder, and then the victim had died so it was likely that the new charge would be murder. That's quite a big development for the prisoner and yet that as a motive for the suicide is thrown out in favour of the trans issue.
Really irritating article!

Wolpertinger · 08/01/2017 11:34

The other thing about special wings for trans prisoners is would all the trans prisoners want to go there?

Clearly some of them would still agititate to go to women's prisons as they see themselves as women, not trans. Some of them are quite happy where they are and have mates on the male wing. Some in fact are more than happy in their female identities getting attention from male prisoners. And then the trans prisoners in for burglary might not be happy being in with the trans sex offenders who would then be vulnerable, so need a special wing of their own still.

It goes on and on, meanwhile the prison service doesn't have funding to provide basic things like education programmes or stop people being locked in their cells 23 hours a day.

HermioneWeasley · 08/01/2017 14:50

amo

If trans women are women, please define the word "woman"

Last year a male who had no GRC, no therapy and had intact male genitals was moved to a women's prison on the back of a petition. That's how we're making justice decisions now.

By the way, I've been told off by MNHQ for saying "trans women aren't women", despite th fact they've said previously they wouldn't delete comments for stating prevailing scientific opinion. We are in a post truth world indeed.

WankingMonkey · 08/01/2017 15:02

By the way, I've been told off by MNHQ for saying "trans women aren't women"

Trans women are not female, seems to be fine. Its all about 'redefining' the word woman seemingly. I don't really have issues with letting them have the word woman, but we will need a new word to describe an 'adult human female'...

HermioneWeasley · 08/01/2017 16:18

Well I do have an issue with the word "woman" now meaning "a vague feeling in a man's head" and I'm not ready to let go of it yet

WankingMonkey · 08/01/2017 16:24

I actually feel the same, but when you realise its all down to a fucking word..it shows how stupid the whole thing is.

Woman cannot possibly just mean 'anyone who identifies as a woman' as its a circular definition, it makes no sense. How can you 'identify' with something that no longer has a meaning?

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