I don't believe in We Believe You

[PoochSmooch]

No, settle down, I totally do!

But I got into a terrific argument with an old friend over this the other day. He thinks it's a terrible campaign, an injustice to men, and an invitation to miscarriages of justice.

I tried to put the viewpoint that actually, there's no legal weight to it at all, that it makes no difference to the legal process if people not involved in it decide that they believe the person who says they've been raped or assaulted. But it's a kind, human thing to do in a world that tends to blame women for being raped, and to disbelieve them without compelling evidence outwith their own ability to know whether they consented or not.

I tried to explain that women in general don't lie about rape, that there's very little motivation to do so, and conversely there is much more motivation to lie about having raped someone. I wheeled out some of the stats on the under-reporting of rape, the reasons why that happens, and what I see as the need to address that by talking about how we treat rape.

He was adamant - rape can only ever be treated as a 50/50 he said/she said situation, with equal weight being given to the possibility that either person may be lying. It is harmful towards men to believe anything else. People should never take sides by believing women, because that is unfair to men. It then came out that he thought the word "rape" was far too "harsh" a word to use for any encounter other than a stranger in a dark alley - so basically there is "real" rape and "just date rape". He really squirmed when I directly asked "do you think it is common for women to lie about rape", but I got the sense that this is what he believes.

I was so lost in the debate to be honest. I find it a struggle to think that someone could object so vociferously to the simple act of telling someone that you believe that what she says happened to her, happened to her.

We parted friends, but I was like, fuck, I wonder how many other people think like this? What would you have done in my shoes? What arguments would you have used? Is "We Believe You" unjustly harmful, when set against the harm caused by rape being so woefully under-reported, under-prosecuted and rarely resulting in any kind of punishment?

M0stlyHet

You nailed it there.

I think this perception that men have about the number of false allegations is a result of the term rape not only being used in the traditional 'down a dark alley' way or within an abusive relationship, but to apply to drunk women who are fairly incapable. It's only recently in our culture that has seen a shift from actively trying to get a woman drunk in order to 'seduce' her, to that now being called rape. It's a whole layer of access to women that has been redefined and the man is expected to respect women's boundaries over his own desires.

It's that conflict that has them worried they will fail to do so and then be accused of something they don't really feel they have deserved. Cos you know, they're not 'real' rapists. The premise is based on entitlement to sex. Pure and simple.

I'm sorry that happened to you, myoriginal. Sending you some virtual hugs.

Really sorry to hear that happened to you myoriginal. Have you had people around you who have believed you and supported you? How are you doing?

'I think this perception that men have about the number of false allegations is a result of the term rape not only being used in the traditional 'down a dark alley' way or within an abusive relationship, but to apply to drunk women who are fairly incapable. It's only recently in our culture that has seen a shift from actively trying to get a woman drunk in order to 'seduce' her, to that now being called rape. It's a whole layer of access to women that has been redefined and the man is expected to respect women's boundaries over his own desires.

It's that conflict that has them worried they will fail to do so and then be accused of something they don't really feel they have deserved. Cos you know, they're not 'real' rapists. The premise is based on entitlement to sex. Pure and simple.'

HEAR HEAR. With fucking bells on.

I've been raped, my sister's been raped and many of my friends have been raped. None of us reported it. I have never once known a single man who's been accused of rape, falsely or otherwise.

The idea that false accusations are this big problem we must protect men from is so utterly fucked up I struggle to even address it tbh. In the UK a minimum of 85,000 women a year are raped. Rape is a massive problem. False accusations are just not. They're not. So why do people focus on them so much???

I will challenge him about this again, sparrow. I I think that I made him think a bit about things, and I saw some chinks emerging. But it's not a friendship killer and I don't really want to demonise him. He would believe me, I'm 100% certain (in fact, I know he would from past events).

The thread was really about more broadly how many other people think like this and why?

To be brutally honest, I don't think anyone believed me until he raped again on the 9th October. Then they 'suddenly' believed me. Stupid people .

To the op. I think it's largely because people don't talk about it. It's almost a myth.

So sorry myoriginal :( Not being believed is really horrible. I found people's reactions to the abuse I suffered worse, in a way, than the abuse itself. My abuser was a monster, I didn't expect him to be good to me (of course). But I expected my family and friends to care about me and they didn't, they doubted me, made excuses, told me I was making them feel guilty. It was a total kick in the teeth.

I agree with everything you have said Sparrowhawk. But I still don't like "We believe you". Actually especially on the internet. There are so many nutcases and trolls on here sometimes. There are people lying about their children's cancer just to get a thread going. I've believed most of them until the thread suddenly disappears. So it feels like the wrong place to be issuing blanket statements. But this particular campaign feels a little twitterstormy and I'd rather contribute to a more respectful culture by calling out the bad.

FWIW every woman I know has been the victim of sexual assault at the very least. So I am only too aware of the prevailing culture.

I find it hard mentioning it on here even because I just know that some people are nodding at their screens going 'She is SO lying'

But that's life unfortunately.

I think this perception that men have about the number of false allegations is a result of the term rape not only being used in the traditional 'down a dark alley' way or within an abusive relationship, but to apply to drunk women who are fairly incapable.

I think men are scared that after a consensual sexual encounter when any amount of alcohol is consumed they could be accused of rape the following day and they would be believed to be a rapist. It is their responsibility entirely to ensure that the women they are with wants to have sex, not hers to communicate that she does even if she does she can say otherwise in the morning and he wont be believed. I don't know why the fear of this is so great but I think it comes down to this. Fear of an accusation drives it because whether or not he is found guilty, mud sticks.

'I agree with everything you have said Sparrowhawk. But I still don't like "We believe you". Actually especially on the internet. There are so many nutcases and trolls on here sometimes. There are people lying about their children's cancer just to get a thread going. I've believed most of them until the thread suddenly disappears. So it feels like the wrong place to be issuing blanket statements. But this particular campaign feels a little twitterstormy and I'd rather contribute to a more respectful culture by calling out the bad.'

So is your default position 'I don't believe you'?

Tbh I don't care about twitter.

My own mother didn't believe me until I linked a newspaper article which referenced the two rapes.

That's fair enough backing. I get what you're saying.

ooops, posted too soon. How do you think we could improve reporting rates and convictions if this strategy doesn't work for you?

So is your default position 'I don't believe you'?

No of course not. My default position is that with regard to strangers, I don't know. The weight of history is suggests that lying is incredibly rare and I would assume they were telling me straight. And for all the reasons others have said below, in all probability they have been the victim of a crime and they may not get the justice they deserve. But my approach to that is to challenge this wherever I see it - not to start proclaiming my belief in people I don't know.

'Fear of an accusation drives it because whether or not he is found guilty, mud sticks.'

Mud does not stick. There are a large number of celebrities accused/convicted of sexual assault for whom the accusation/conviction has made very little difference. I know men who have beaten women in public and are still given unconditional support by family and friends, while the beaten woman is labelled 'crazy.'

I know this is a bit blue sky but I think it's about educating all of society about boundaries, bodily autonomy and equality. In other words, I don't think this is something we can achieve quickly.

I think women's bodies in particular are deemed available. I think men have no idea what this is like (hence the OP's friend's comments but also the general lack of awareness among men about all of this and the tendency to brush it all off as a bit of fun and banter). I think women are forced to play this sexually available game and call it empowerment.

No end of problems really

A particularly hideous example of mud not sticking is the director Bernardo Bertolucci and Marlon Brando. Maria Schneider said for years and years that she had been assaulted during the filming of Last Tango in Paris - it is very clear in the film that she is genuinely terrified and crying. It wasn't until very recently when Bertolucci openly that he and Brando deliberately planned to humiliate and upset her that anyone believed a word Maria said. Unfortunately (or fortunately for Bertolucci) Schneider is dead. None of her 'mud' stuck in the slightest while she was alive, despite the fact that the film of her assault has been seen by millions.

myoriginal
backing I can see why you don't want to necessary apply WBY to mumsnet threads. But surely the best thing to do is say nothing?
I thought WBY was meant to be an approach to rape generally e.g. with friends and family, with cases in the papers etc. Do you have a problem with ithe in those circumstances?
plectrum that article is amazing and grow you should read it. Why is the fear if wrongful accusation of one man so much more important that 96% of people who report rape not seeing a conviction and being branded liars and threatened with their own prosecution? Mud sticks to women too, usually women who've tried to do the right thing (and please remember that a man being found not guilty doesn't mean the woman lied)

openly admitted

I do think it's quite interesting that in grows example, the big fear for men is being accused of rape, but I don't see it mentioned anywhere that they are also afraid that because they're not in control of their actions due to being drunk, they "inadvertently" actually do rape someone?

There's a dog that's not barking.

'No of course not. My default position is that with regard to strangers, I don't know. The weight of history is suggests that lying is incredibly rare and I would assume they were telling me straight. And for all the reasons others have said below, in all probability they have been the victim of a crime and they may not get the justice they deserve. But my approach to that is to challenge this wherever I see it - not to start proclaiming my belief in people I don't know.'

I don't think you quite understand the point of the campaign. It's not about declaring belief in people you don't know, it's about extending the same courtesy you give everybody else to victims of rape.

So, if someone comes on and says 'Someone burgled my house' the response generally will be 'oh that's awful have you called the police', ie the default position is that the person is believed.

In cases of sexual assault the default position is often that the person isn't believed - they're questioned as to whether it actually happened. The WBY campaign is a strong simple statement to tackle that so that victims who need support don't have the utterly demoralising and frankly hideous hurdle of getting people to even take them seriously in the first place.

And yes, trolls exist, that's one of the dangers of engaging with people online. But I'd far rather believe a troll and find out I was wrong than to disbelieve a rape victim and add to her suffering.

I don't know why the fear of this is so great but I think it comes down to this

Because so many men know that they've coerced women into having sex by getting them that little bit drunker than they intended to be, or by cajoling and boundary pushing until a woman gives in. They know that that was rape, and they're praying that the woman doesn't, and relying on the fact that there's no way that a woman could ever get a conviction on that basis.

They're worried that one day, they will actually have to start behaving like decent human beings, actually have to face up to the terrible things they've done rather than seeing these women as fair game and deserving all they got.