I don't believe in We Believe You

[PoochSmooch]

No, settle down, I totally do!

But I got into a terrific argument with an old friend over this the other day. He thinks it's a terrible campaign, an injustice to men, and an invitation to miscarriages of justice.

I tried to put the viewpoint that actually, there's no legal weight to it at all, that it makes no difference to the legal process if people not involved in it decide that they believe the person who says they've been raped or assaulted. But it's a kind, human thing to do in a world that tends to blame women for being raped, and to disbelieve them without compelling evidence outwith their own ability to know whether they consented or not.

I tried to explain that women in general don't lie about rape, that there's very little motivation to do so, and conversely there is much more motivation to lie about having raped someone. I wheeled out some of the stats on the under-reporting of rape, the reasons why that happens, and what I see as the need to address that by talking about how we treat rape.

He was adamant - rape can only ever be treated as a 50/50 he said/she said situation, with equal weight being given to the possibility that either person may be lying. It is harmful towards men to believe anything else. People should never take sides by believing women, because that is unfair to men. It then came out that he thought the word "rape" was far too "harsh" a word to use for any encounter other than a stranger in a dark alley - so basically there is "real" rape and "just date rape". He really squirmed when I directly asked "do you think it is common for women to lie about rape", but I got the sense that this is what he believes.

I was so lost in the debate to be honest. I find it a struggle to think that someone could object so vociferously to the simple act of telling someone that you believe that what she says happened to her, happened to her.

We parted friends, but I was like, fuck, I wonder how many other people think like this? What would you have done in my shoes? What arguments would you have used? Is "We Believe You" unjustly harmful, when set against the harm caused by rape being so woefully under-reported, under-prosecuted and rarely resulting in any kind of punishment?

But many people make all sorts of false reports for all sorts of crimes. They're very rarely included in home office statistics due to the nature of police recording (although that is changing, expect MASSIVE jumps in next years stats)

'They will just make sure word gets round that X has raped them and with a campaign like 'We Believe You' behind them the damage is done.'

Really? When does this happen? In my experience most women don't want it spread around that they were raped because of the appalling victim blaming they encounter. Just look at the girl in the Ched Evans case, even when their was a conviction she was outed and abused on social media to the point where she has had to change identity more than once and go into hiding. And when men are found not guilty there are always cries of how the victim should now be prosecuted because she must have been lying, completely ignorant of how hard it is to get a conviction. You can argue against the campaign but please don't make damaging stuff up to do so.

.

"taking their story seriously rather than automatically dismissing it"

This is at the heart of it for me as to why I don't like it. Absolutely it shouldn't be automatically dismissed and police failure to follow up on allegations should be tackled. But the opposite of automatically dismissing it is not saying "We believe you". It's properly investigating.

In the absence of much evidence either way as would be the case in many situations, it's very difficult to come to a conclusion. That's why "We believe you" is damaging I think. If something can't be proved then it can't be proved. And although a tiny minority would lie about something like this, some would. And the alleged perpetrators deserve the same hearing as anyone else.

I wouldn't automatically "believe" a perfect stranger just because she's a woman talking about rape any more than I would automatically believe a man who said he hadn't done it.

It's the kneejerk use of it I don't like.

'We are listening and here to support you' doesn't address the culture, unique to rape, that assumes victims are lying or at least responsible for what happened to them.

The odds are so stacked against victims of rape that any attempt to change that should be a good thing. We Believe You is trying to address the imbalance and lack of justice for victims of rape, who rarely get justice. It has no basis on law and the conviction rates remain as low as ever, men continue to rape with impunity and in a recent high profile case a young woman was grilled about her sexual history. Yet people want to complain about a campaign, predominantly started by women, to support women who are victims of rape and unlikely to ever get justice. Some people need to get their priorities straight.

There are some great points here that I wish I'd thought of at the time.

tribpot, that would have been a great question to ask. I've never understood the urge to distinguish - a rape by a stranger is horrible because it's a rape by a stranger, and a rape by someone that you know and possibly love is horrible because it's someone that you know and love. Both horrific.

I think it does come down to if you think women lie about rape or not. And given what I know about my life, and my friend's lives, I simply don't believe that lying about rape is anything other than rare.

This is a very good childhood friend, by the way. Occasionally a bit of a misogynist. But then a lot of my friends hold some views that I disagree with - I'm not sure it's possible to only ever have friends who completely agree with you?! But yes, this is a biggie to disagree on, I see that. And I was pretty upset about it.

So if someone was telling you they'd been raped, you'd not tell then you'd believe them? Charming
At the end of the day it has no material bearing on the case whether or not the mumsnet members follow "we believe you". A culture where victims feel they will be believed is important though to raise reporting rates. All those saying "I wouldn't automatically believe them" or "I think it should be I'm listening and I support you", how do you think you would feel if that was a response to you disclosing something extremely traumatic about your own life (not necessarily rape)?
"My mother used to beat me as a child"
"I'm listening and I support you"
"But do you believe me?"
"Not necessarily, I need to wait until I've heard both sides in court"
"Why would I make this up?"
"I'm not saying you are, but wouldn't it be awful for your mum to get a reputation for beating children when she's done nothing wrong"
"But she used to beat me up!!!"
"We'll let's see what the evidence is but in the meantime you can always talk to me"

I have my priorities straight thanks.

As I said in my first post, I care about all the things you mentioned. But issuing a blanket "we believe you" is not the way I choose to go about this.

I tackle victim blaming where I see it. I tackle male aggression and expectations of dominance where I see it. But I also find "We believe you" unhelpful and actually a bit undermining to women. I appreciate that this is not the intention but that's my take on it and the OP was asking for views on it and that's mine.

FWIW I disagree with almost all of what her friend said.

Sorry, too slow! That was to backing and milk

'I wouldn't automatically "believe" a perfect stranger just because she's a woman talking about rape"

I'm betting you would believe her if she told you she'd been burgled though.

Can you explain why you find it "a bit undermining to women", backing?

I think my problem with stating it as you do, backing, is that the statement "If something can't be proved then it can't be proved", when you're not giving weight or consideration to the woman's assertion that she was raped - well, it doesn't leave you with much to go on, does it? Most rapes would fail that test, I think.

I totally agree that lying about rape is incredibly rare.

However, it does happen. Of course it does because women are human too. I believe some of the allegations coming up in the context of Dolphin Square have now been massively discounted because the accuser (male I think) is now thought to have been a fantasist. Lives have been ruined as a result. I think it's important to retain some balance.

If it's a friend then of course I believe them. I don't need to be balanced. I need to support and I know they don't lie. But a random stranger on the internet to whom I should intone "I believe you" when I don't know them? No, then I'll stick to listening and being supportive.

that's a very powerful way of putting it, devi

SpeakNoWords - I can think of 2 good friends I would not believe automatically. In fact there would be a higher than 50% chance they, whilst not necessarily outright lying, were bending the truth.

"when you're not giving weight or consideration to the woman's assertion that she was raped"

The problem with date rapes is that it's very often going to be someone's assertion about what happened versus else's assertion. The assertions should be equally considered and if that doesn't happen that's wrong. But to automatically load weight onto one and not the other because X is the complainant and Y is the defendant is not the right way to go imho.

Obviously this applies to two adults arguing about what happened. Not where there is power on one side.

Do they know you wouldn't believe them about things like this, Milk?

Devi that's a great post, and I think also explains why some women know lots of victims of rape and others say that no-one in their circle of friends has ever said to them that they've been raped. Now some of this is statistical variation - rapes aren't distributed entirely evenly through the population. But some of it is that women who've been raped pick up nuances in people's attitudes and know which friends it's safe to open up to, and which would act like the person in your little script - "I support you, but of course I can't believe you till it's been proven."

I saw this article linked on twitter, which seems relevant to this discussion. Worth a read as it's about 'why rape cases should not be subject to reasonable doubt'. I doubt we'd ever move from that point in law but it's an interesting perspective & one I think is relevant to this discussion.

SpeakNoWords - tbh I don't know. I offer "tea & sympathy" and I'll listen to them. I'd give them the phone to call the police if they wished to do so. But I wouldn't automatically believe them.

But some of it is that women who've been raped pick up nuances...

Maybe, having been raped myself, I too am picking up nuances, but ones which could cause doubt. I don't know.

I wonder where that principle of "fairness" goes in the event of an aquittal in a rape trial? The people I've seen and heard who are keen on hearing both sides of the story beforehand seem quite quick to jump to "she lied, then" in the event of an acquittal. When in fact all an acquittal in a rape trial can really mean is that there was insufficient evidence to convict. Unless the victim subsequently states that she made it up, or is prosecuted for that, maybe. I just do wonder if this urge to be fair is quite all that it seems...

That's a really interesting article, plectrum. I expect there are many people who will not like it one bit.

Having been raped on the 15th September this year, the single most important thing to me has been being believed. It's difficult to describe how utterly isolating it is when you know someone doesn't believe you.

I was on MN when WBY was started. It came about as a result of a number of threads about rape, such as "If you were raped, would you report it?"

The overriding response to these threads was that a huge factor in not reporting was the fear of not being believed.

It "helped" that at the time MN was overrun with MRA trolls who would join these threads to belittle rape victims, cast doubt on real rape statistics, and just basically be heinous. This served to prove the point of many MNetters that rape was not taken as seriously as it should be, along with the news that the Met Police had No-Crimed a large number of rape victim's reports (including victims of the Black Cab rapist).

WBY was born of a need for rape victims to feel that they would be believed if they come forward to report rape.

'This is a very good childhood friend, by the way. Occasionally a bit of a misogynist. But then a lot of my friends hold some views that I disagree with - I'm not sure it's possible to only ever have friends who completely agree with you?! But yes, this is a biggie to disagree on, I see that. And I was pretty upset about it.'

This isn't the same as disagreeing about, say, whether to stay in the EU. Your friend was basically saying that if someone date raped you he wouldn't consider that particularly bad, that he values men over women and would have very little sympathy for you. It's along the same lines as a white person saying to a black friend 'it's only racism if someone shouts at you in the street, it doesn't matter if someone you love and respect calls you the N word.' Would your friend dare to say such a thing? I doubt it.