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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

should I reprimand my son?

53 replies

user1481132670 · 08/12/2016 10:54

he is playing pirates, nothing wrong with that of course but he is going about with a plastic sword saying he is going to "rape and pillage" which is making me somewhat uncomfortable Shock

OP posts:
PreemptiveSalvageEngineer · 09/12/2016 13:21

What's a pirate's favourite designer label?

Aaaaarrrrmani.

(Don't get me started...)

TheMortificadosDragon · 09/12/2016 15:20

Pirates favourite animal?
Aaarrrdvaaarrrk.

WritersBlockk · 09/12/2016 23:24

He's just overheard it I'm sure he doesn't know what it means. Just explain its not nice language to use etc.

PreemptiveSalvageEngineer · 09/12/2016 23:56

What's a pirate's favourite 1960s-byilt shopping centre?

The Aaaarrrrrndale.

(See? You got me started...)

Potnoodlewilld0 · 10/12/2016 00:33

Oh god , so 'ravishing' is actually a rapey word - Sad

DarkNanny · 10/12/2016 01:20

Not sure the meaning of rape has changed just that we hear it more usually in regards to a sexual crime gay is still happy for example but usually it refers to people romantically liking the same sex...vikings and pirates are not quite the same vikings were people who ended up settling pirates were criminals who had no fixed abode and usually attacked trade vessels

PreemptiveSalvageEngineer · 10/12/2016 08:45

The main definition for "pirate" is somebody who plunders by sea (the "stand and deliver" reference earlier made me chuckle, as it's more land -based thievery). So, Vikings, yes, were included in that number, most of the time, but mainly, as long as there have been boats and harbour towns, there have been people to rob them. Julius Caesar, as a youth, was kidnapped by Mediterranean pirates long before the Vikings had their identity, for instance.

The main difference was that in Roman and Viking times, the act itself was not considered the crime, but against whom you committed it. Most clear-cut of all is that a Roman citizen should, in theory, have been able to trek from one side of the empire to the other without being molested, but there were myriad, smaller, sometimes-shifting non-aggression pacts between various demesnes throughout history.

Soca lot of Vikings did, yes, settle down and become tradesmen, farmers, etc. But some never did. Some Vikings went on to become mercenary soldiers, some even protecting the last of the Roman rulers towards the end of the Empire.

What most kids play at, most fancy-dress hirers reckon they're doing (they're not, don't even get me started), the "aaarrrrr" Cornish accent, is late 1600s through 1700s.

In this respect, it's worth noting:

  • Again, it depends on who's doing the thieving and against whom. What the Spanish called pirates, QE1 called explorers and privateers, because they worked for her (and, crucially, she wasn't going to care about no Papal bull forbidding anybody BUT Spain from trading with the New World!). Some perfectly otherwise-law-abiding settlers in the New World, by the very fact of selling their goods to an English ship instead of the Spanish monopoly, were committing acts of piracy.

  • But yes, things could get nasty. Pirates would steal food and water from each other if they were low on supplies, leaving the other guys to die of thirst or starve.

  • Even the "legitimate" naval forces looted. It was how they made the bulk of their money, and was a great incentive for the crew.

  • Pirates could and would retire when they'd made enough money. The main difference between this time and Viking times was that ex-(golden-age)pirates were keener to hide themselves. There's more than a few "great families" of America whose first ancestor was suspiciously rich and scarred. Strange "retired sea captains" were constantly showing up in obscure English towns, buying the local big house and settling down to become local squires.

So, yeah, not as clear-cut as "bad guys", but sometimes even nastier than people imagine.

There's an hilarious Robot Chicken sketch of a gal wanting her boyfriend to dress up like Captain Jack Sparrow, but draws the line when he does the full "smellovision" experience. I can't link, but worth a YouTube search, for some light relief from my history soapbox! Xmas Blush

dogdinner · 10/12/2016 08:54

Interesting thread.
I love pirates, the idea of them. Probably wouldn't really want much to do with them in the real world. (Pirate emoji)

Can he use pillage and plunder ?

Though depending on his age I think no one will be mortally offended to over hear a young child say rape in this context. However it is a good opportunity to gently educate.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/12/2016 09:25

I think people would be a bit taken aback to hear a child saying that. School or nursery might wonder where he had heard it and are not going to be keen on other children picking up on it.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/12/2016 09:54

The main definition for "pirate" is somebody who plunders by sea (the "stand and deliver" reference earlier made me chuckle, as it's more land -based thievery).

Actually, it was more of a reference to Adam an the Ants, who also did Pirates. Never mind.

givemegravyonemoretime · 10/12/2016 09:59

This has taken me right back. My best friend when I was 10 was a huge fan of the Titanic film, and had a pair of slippers made to look like a rabbit. One of the feet of one of the rabbits came off, and she happily presented it to her mum in her best Leonardo DiCaprio voice, saying "look, it's a one legged prostitute". I remember the horror creeping across her Mum's face and then the awkwardness as she explained to us what a prostitute was.

I'm in the educate camp, OP. Ask your son if he knows what rape is. If he does, help him understand why it's insensitive to joke about it. If he doesn't, give him an age appropriate explanation.

DarkNanny · 10/12/2016 13:18

we are dumbing the English language down here rape isn't just the sexual crime it's a word that can be used in context to despoil see prior definition...I do understand the age appropriateness but we also should have words used in context historical and social without fear

TheMortificadosDragon · 10/12/2016 13:42

Tbh I don't think 'despoil and loot' is a great game either - as per my previous post, wouldn't it be better to encourage 'fair fight' games? Raid a spanish galleon or rebut the Royal Navy, leave the poor landlubber yokels in peace.

DarkNanny · 10/12/2016 13:47

Themort are you suggesting rich on rich crime ? Not sure that is a realistic game to be fair (0:

ISaySteadyOn · 10/12/2016 14:04

I don't know. They could play Sir Francis Drake, famed explorer, (cough)pirate(cough) going after Spanish galleons.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/12/2016 14:09

we are dumbing the English language down here rape isn't just the sexual crime it's a word that can be used in context to despoil see prior definition.

Hmm. Not really. Rape is from Latin rapere- to seize.

The rape of the Sabine Women did not necessarily call involve sexual abuse by penetration. Goldsmith's poem The Rape of the Lock is about cutting off a lock of hair without permission.

But language evolves. Fantastic, fabulous and glamorous are rarely used in their original meaning ( I'm on a mission to retain them)

I remember a very odd Classics teacher trying to make a class of secondary 2 (13/14) in the early 70s come up with an English word derived from rapere. No one said anything and he called us all dim or similar and asked if we had never heard of the words rapacious or raptor? Of course we had, but the word we were all thinking of and were not going to say was "rape"

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/12/2016 14:11

I don't know. They could play Sir Francis Drake, famed explorer, (cough)pirate(cough) going after Spanish galleons.

It's more realistic than the suggestion "raping" is OK in this context and not to use it is dumbing down.

Pollyanna9 · 10/12/2016 14:12

God can I just say how much I hate people wanting to say to children "That's not nice" - gawd blimey.

Not nice? Obviously rape is a lot more than not nice. Obviously this is a child and he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about so has no understanding of it. So there's the issue that not nice falls far short in descriptive accuracy.

But it always seems to me that it infers the 'not niceness' on the person saying it! (whatever the goddam hell not nice even means anyway).

Surely we would say "DS please don't say 'raping and pillaging' because raping is a really horrible thing people can do to other people and it really hurts them so can we think together of something else to say?"

Not "that's not nice" - it's so lacking in accuracy this terminology - what's not nice, which part of it isn't nice, is it the child that's not nice for saying it - how are they supposed to gain any insight with the not nice comment?.

Right, I'm off to Pedantics Anonymous now, "My name is Pollyanna and I'm a Pedant"....

Pollyanna9 · 10/12/2016 14:16

I don't agree we're dumbing down language at all.

If he spouts that phrase out when he's in front of the whole family at a Christmas gathering undoubtedly they will hopefully understand he has no idea what it means, but they will most certainly understand it to mean sexual rape and obviously, DC will notice a lot of raised eyebrows and slightly askance faces should he trot his favourite pirating phrase out to a wider audience!!

You can't reprimand him for saying something he doesn't understand, but you can educate him that he shouldn't say it and why (at the appropriately age-censored level of course). He shouldn't need to 'understand what it is' at his age! Christ. He just needs to know its horrid and violent and that why he should't say it and that can be the end of it.

In the context of raping and pillaging rape was sexual rape was it not? Still happens today by invading armies.

DarkNanny · 10/12/2016 14:19

No the word rape is not just sexual many Viking raiders happened to be female they were settlers mostly
We can rape the natural world we can rape spiritually the word can be used in many ways and again its context and historical

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/12/2016 14:38

You really are splitting hairs and then some Nanny

Yes rape can be used in the context you mean but that is not the context here.

Some rich man came and raped the land, nobody caught 'em,
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes and, Jesus, people bought 'em

is a deliberately shocking and effective use of the word - written by a grown up who was writing for other grown-ups who understood the context.

TheMortificadosDragon · 10/12/2016 14:41

But either way, 'rape' is thoroughly nasty. The non-sexual meaning: 'an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation:' - should that figure in a child's fantasy roleplay?

Backingvocals · 10/12/2016 14:46

Dragon I think that all those words generally describe pirating generally. Even today as my friend who is a merchant sailor will tell you. So if we don't want violent play we can't permit games of pirates.

TheMortificadosDragon · 10/12/2016 14:53

Hence my use of the word 'fantasy'. Pirate games aren't (IMO) supposed to be remotely realistic, any more than princess or star wars games or whatever.

Backingvocals · 10/12/2016 15:05

No indeed. And I'd be happy for DS to act out walking the plank or whatever, even though the truth of that must have been horrific. I wouldnt let him run around shouting rape though. As he's too young to understand the issues I'd just let him know that we dont use that word in play. No need for anything more imo.

The rest of the discussion is about the historical facts which are interesting for us but don't necessarily need discussion with DCs who struggle with understanding whether I was born when the Great Fire of London happened Grin