Does having sex with a prostitute constitute rape?

[quencher]

A thread triggered this for me so I have decided to ask the question. If you consent to be paid for sex but don't feel like sleeping with the customer, are you being raped?

That's fair, Giles. Glad you got out when you needed to.
Maggie, I'm talking from my own experience. If yours was ok, that's good. But my laugh is at those who imagine that high end prostitution is quite nice for most. It isn't. Of course for some people it's ok, but it wasn't for me or the women I knew. Thats all.

Yes it's absolutely rape.

I am not professing to be an expert but I did do some research for an assignment some years ago. As a somewhat naive 18 year old (at least in my knowledge of prostitution I'm also an abuse survivor) I was extremely shocked, I expected to find pimping, addiction and poverty (particularly homelessness) being factors what I didn't expect to find was that a significant number

have a learning disability

mental illness which affects their ability to assess their personal safety/boundaries or just plain have hypersexuality as a symptom which is exploited by others.

have been prostituted by family from very young ages (truly sickening how often this happens)

are repeating patterns of abuse (I'm the opposite it's kinda put me off sex for a long time so I found it really hard to get my head round that) as a way of coping

Then of course there's those that are trafficked, my assignment was done before the more recent events in the Balkans and Eastern Europe which had led to a rise in trafficked prostitutes in the uk.

"I wouldn't say it's rape on the part of the man. Even if the woman is not consenting as long as the man genuinely believes she is." Oh please!! No way. I find it very hard to believe any man these days using a prostitute doesn't know if they're honest with themselves that most prostitutes have no choice! As for 'not the mans fault' - no demand no supply provided!

"But if you are a man who doesn't check, I'm happy to call you a rapist. If you don't check:

If the woman has a pimp
If the women started working because the age of consent
If the woman was abused as a child and therefore may have boundary issues
If the women is feeding a drug problem and therefore not consenting properly
If the woman is under the influence
If the woman is coerced or trafficked
If the woman has other options
If the woman is desperate for the money (children, rent, food)"

I agree with that last statement to a point but I don't think much of any man using a prostitute to be honest - and I agree calling it 'escorting' is just disingenuous and feeding into mysoginistic cognitive dissonance.

All the laws around prostitution are based on the idea that it's the prostitute in the wrong. The users of prostitutes are not blamed let alone criminalised!

And I apply all of that to male prostitutes too (in researching the assignment I learned they are just as exploited - yes I was an ignorant twat on that score at 18).

"It's all very well stating that men who use prostitutes are rapists and so on... but how does this translate to helping the women?"

It's a societal mental illness isn't it ? And the first step is admitting there's a problem.

Financial - sort the welfare issues

Addiction - treat the addiction
properly (which we are in my opinion very bad at in this country)

Abuse victims - preferably prevent in the first place, if ANY section of society needs to be criminalised and penalised more it's paedophiles. Post-abuse help victims with removing the stigma of being a victim, get them support, counselling etc

Learning disabilities - diagnosis and support can always be improved

Mental illness - diagnosis and treatment can always be improved plus removing stigma.

But I accept that is all very hard to do and depends on us living in an ideal world.

But - first step - criminalise the customers of prostitutes.

Smart I'm so sorry that happened to you and hope your life is much improved and improving.

I'm sorry Smart. Glad you got out.

You can't call every man that's slept with a prostitute a rapist though.. if they were a rapist they wouldn't pay for the sex.

And if the prostitute is 12?

In my book that's rape of a child, paying for it doesn't stop it being rape/abuse.

"woman agrees to have sex with man in exchange for money" it's not rape, but in the real world there is always a context and 99% of the time that context provides the information needed to clarify it as rape, eg "woman agrees to have sex with man in exchange for money and getting to go home without being beaten up".

I had a discussion with a friend about prostitution, basically our conclusion was that if a woman want to have sex in exchange for money that was fine, as long as it was her free choice and a choice of the actual sex acts, and that she could earn as much or more money in another job.

When New Zealand legalised prostitution it was very much a 'we say what we do, and how much' but since then the brothels have brought in a 'one price covers all' so they have no say in the sex acts they take part in.

I read an absolutely harrowing article about legalised brothels in Germany. They advertise a flat rate including a sausage and a beer. So horrific it's almost laughable.

Thanks for the kind messages .
I have a lovely life and family now. I have cptsd, partly from escort work but mainly from the childhood stuff. But I am loved and happy.

I also struggle with the reasons why in an age where there's tinder and swinging sites and sex parties and dogging and bdsm clubs etc etc a man would want to visit a prostitute. If they just want sex there are many ways to get it without paying a prostitute, I do think the men that use prostitutes like the control/abuse element.

If you made it absolutely impossible for any man anywhere to pay a woman for sex... They still need the money, they still can't get a "proper" job, they still need to pay the rent... they've probably got children to feed... where do they get the money from?

So ... what? We turn away from the issue because where else will they get the money from??

Hermoinie

I would have the same opinion if it's a man or woman having sex with a prostitute. I think some men and scum and some women are scum. Sex is irrelevant to me.

Consent and wanting to are different things - consent is making a decision based on all factors, if my father is on life support for instance I might make an informed decision to turn it off, I certainly would rather not but I've decided to and no one is forcing me.

Ordinarily sex workers in theory are not being raped, imo.

If you are arguing that all sex workers are forced, kidnapped, drugged, coerced, tricked, etc then that's that's something to consider. If people have not made a decision to do what they do voluntarily but are being forced then that is rape.

I'd be open to admitting that a lot are forced, and that is a huge issue and needs dealing with, but the theory that every single one is forced is just wrong.

Rollergirl the life support analogy would make sense if your father was on life support and if you didn't "chose" to turn it off you wouldn't get any money to buy your children food. Otherwise not comparable.

No, the exchange of sexual services for money constitutes a business transaction. For both parties.

Consider the following.
1
Him: "Have sex with me or I'll shoot your children"
Her "Yes yes I want to have sex with you (to save my children).
Not consent. Coersion. Rape.

2
Him: "You need money? Have sex with me and you'll get some"
Her: "Well my children will starve without money. Yes I'll have sex with you" Is this coersion and therefore rape? Or true consent?

rollergirl let's not pretend that equal numbers of men and women are punters and sex workers. It's an overwhelmingly male/female split of male punters and female sex workers.

And because as a punter you have no way of knowing who is trafficked, who is desperate and who is Belle de Jour, it makes you reprehensible in my eyes not to feel sick to the stomach at the thought that you might be raping a vulnerable woman.

Not at all. It's a harrowing choice to be a prostitute sometimes. I'm sure it's always a harrowing choice to decide about life support.

Do you honestly believe there's no women who do it for the money? Non who do it to put themselves through college? Dating sites that cater for women wanting sugar daddies then these women go into escorting as they like sex and money?

It's irrelevant also why women are doing it, what's relevant is what the men who have sex with them believe. Rape requires a particular mens rea (unless the victim is under a certain age) and it's down to what the man believes. That's how the footballer got away with it as they had enough doubt to think he could have reasonably belived she was consenting. Yes fucking awful situation for the victim and I'm not sure I believe that he thought she was convincing and that belief was reasonable but IF he did then he's not a rapist.

Clearly some people of this thread have said they don't believe all prostitutes are forced, so it doesn't matter what you think about sex workers you can't say that everyone should believe the same as you.

It's an important question OP.
I never saw another thread, but some people think consent can't be bought. That prostitutes are performing sex under duress.

Others think prostitutes are consenting purely by the exchange of money...

Well, the thing about sex for money is you don't get to choose your punt. You don't get to withdraw your consent and you dont often get to choose which sexual acts you perform either.

Graphista
With you there.

I believe very very few genuinely want to do it. You'd have to come up with very convincing evidence to persuade me otherwise therefore in the majority of cases it is rape.

Well Hermione I guess that depends on your perspective. Some people would go to dubai for example and some people find the culture deplorable (talking about the slave trade)

I think there's enough to be done that could mitigate the risks enough to ensure you don't sleep with someone who is unwilling. I.e. I would sleep with a sex workers in Thailand but I would possibly sleep with a sex worker who I came from an agency, didnt look like they had a drug problem, very obviously over age of consent (this would be my main concern so very possibly would ask for id) and was convincing and upfront about their consent.

Do you believe adult male prostitutes are coerced into it?

smartleatherbag
And with you too. Indeed most people have no idea.

Rollergirl7 if you want to find the most statistically likely person to be murdered by a man, welcome yourself to the world of Thailand prostitution.
(This disproportionately includes Thai ladyboys).

Adult Thai ladyboys are coerced by socioeconomic factors. Most are sent from the poorest villages to send money back to their family because this is the village's only hope.

In Europe, a woman's only hope may well be prostitution.
This works out rather well for men doesn't it.

I wouldn't go to Dubai either and am boggled that people choose to.

I don't know enough about adult male prositutes to have a view on them, but I'd love to know how coming from an agency and not looking like someone has a drug problem are magical forcefields against exploitation and trafficking.

Why can't we just say that women's bodies aren't for sale? Why must there be an option to buy them to wank into "nicely"?