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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Does having sex with a prostitute constitute rape?

506 replies

quencher · 28/11/2016 17:59

A thread triggered this for me so I have decided to ask the question. If you consent to be paid for sex but don't feel like sleeping with the customer, are you being raped?

OP posts:
quencher · 02/12/2016 22:12

Yes, but asking if it's rape when you're redefining the concept of rape is a bit circular.
So according to the legal, accepted definition I'd say it's not rape
But according to the mumsnet definition it isn't.

We are not re-defining rape. We are discussing the concept of rape, how it would apply when looking at prostitution. Rape itself is open for debate on what can be included and as mentioned above.

Adala
Meanwhile society is fine with a 30 year old making that choice - even if she's had a shitty family, little or no education, no wealth, perhaps significant health problems or lower mental health and "maturity" due to an abusive and deprived life. She actually may have even less "choice" than that 12 year old (who could perhaps reach out to their parents or teachers for support, as I did). An adult not being able to manage their life is different to children in general who need help and protection from adults. Society dictates and expect that by the age 30, we as people know where we are in life, capable to make decisions about buying houses, getting jobs, looking after ourselves and other little humans in our care.
If a person gets to the age of 30 and cant manage mentally, they are the anomaly ( not meant in mean way). They are outside of our societies expectation of what an adult should be. Those who have mental disability that need constantly looking after, do get that care and have the law to look after them. There are those that sleep through the net because their mental disability do not fall into the category where they can get help throughout their lives. They are on the periphery, not easy to diagnose and not ill enough to get. Constant care for the rest of their lives or they were never really diagnosed.
Most mental health problems are not as severe. You can get counselling or medication to keep you going.
Some jobs you are not allowed to perform under theses circumstances but there are some when you declare you have been medicated for depression or similar, you are not given the job or dismissed or monitored constantly. (Your free will as a person is denied because they think you will be incapable of making important decisions expected of you).
If the cut of point included those on the milder-end and no one passed through without being missed as needing help, they might all actually get help. The state is financially incapable of doing this. We as society make mistakes too when making judgment on who needs help. There is a cut off point for both financial reason and ambiguity for the the cut of point for who really needs help and who doesn't. This is not very different if you compare it to rape. What the law finds understandable to prosecute and what is ambiguous grounds of rape due to luck of understanding.

A British person, on British street who is a homeless person more than likely has a mental disability of some form. Am not saying all but most.

But some people have sympathy for the former but not for the latter who is a grown-up and able to "make their own choices". Because she passed the age of 16 or whatever. There is an expectation for adults to be able to look after themselves, while you can't say the same for children. Teenagers have hormones to deal with too. An adult is there for guidance and offer protection.

OP posts:
Tarla · 02/12/2016 22:12

What is your understanding of it? For many prostitutes women it would be incredibly difficult to simply walk away or to refuse a client, this has been explained several times on the thread. Also not every prostitute is of the call girl variety. Women being picked up by curb crawlers certainly aren't vetting anyone.

maggiethemagpie · 02/12/2016 22:29

I don't agree Tarla. Even on the street if a client is known to be 'dodgy' the women can refuse to go with him (can, not will - some will prioritise the need for money /drugs over their own safety)

But my point is, women can choose to leave prostitution altogether, and many do. So that's the free choice. Not saying it's an easy choice, but it is a possible choice.

WomanWithAltitude · 02/12/2016 22:30

The thread has moved on a bit, but idea that the law has the last word on what constitutes rape is ridiculous. The concept of rape existed before systems of law and order.

At one time, the law would only say something was rape if the act involved serious violence (it had to be forcible) - does that mean women who were raped in different circumstances weren't actually raped? If a woman told you she was raped by her husband in the 80s, would you tell her not to be silly as it wasn't possible back then?

The concept of rape is totally independent of the law. The law simply sets out the circumstances in which our current justice system is prepared to say that someone has definitely committed a crime. It has changed before and it will change again in future, it's not a constant or something to base your morals on.

quencher · 02/12/2016 22:35

*Pretty much every form of sex apart from enjoyable sex done for the pleasure of it is rape according to the mumsnet jury

This is baffling to me, if you're not enjoying it and doing it for the pleasure of it, why would anyone do it voluntarily?* Exactly this. I would go as far as to say it's self-harm.

Maggie the belief that we have free will and complete autonomy at all given times is a fallacy. Look around you and tell me you do. A human being is the product of their environment and everything we do is a result of that.

But, if the prostitutes don't have free will maybe the men who use them don't. Sex addicts, for example. What if THEY had a difficult/invalidating upbringing? There is a difference. If an alcoholic got behind the wheel, they will still get prosecuted for drink driving regardless for their circumstance.
The law in general is for the greatest number of people rather than the individual. If you inflict pain onto your self, the law will offer protection but if you inflict this pain onto someone else, then more than likely you are breaking the law. This is how our society works.

OP posts:
CocoaX · 02/12/2016 22:38

Consent should be freely given. If money changes hands, consent is not freely given. It is that simple.

maggiethemagpie · 02/12/2016 22:41

Quencher, I see your point in that there are different consequences for punters/prostitutes

But I fail to see how there is a difference between saying prostitutes are not in control of their actions but punters are.

If we don't, as humans, have free will shouldn't this apply to ALL humans?

Personally I think we do have free will but some habits /patterns can be hard to break. However, if women in certain circumstances (eg poverty, drug addiction or just coming from a family background where it is 'the norm' can break away from prostitution I think it's illogical to say that prostitutes don't have free will!

WomanWithAltitude · 02/12/2016 22:49

This free will debate is a total red herring imo.

Of course prostitutes have free will, although their capacity to make choices may be affected by addiction, learning disabilities, MH issues etc..

However, none of that changes the fact that consent, as a concept, is totally incompatible with being a purchasable commodity. The very nature of consent is such that, in order for it to be genuine, it must be freely given. It is not for sale.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2016 22:52

Do you also think that anyone from a disadvantaged background could become Alan Sugar if they really wanted to?

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2016 23:09

"Pretty much every form of sex apart from enjoyable sex done for the ,pleasure of it is rape according to the mumsnet jury"

Well yes, I think I agree with that. I'm trying to think of any other sort of non rapey sex. I suppose there's the timetabled whether you want to or not sex when you both want to conceive a baby. And sometimes the "oh all right then, love" sex when one of you would much rather be reading a book......
But mostly "enjoyable sex done for pleasure" sums up non rapey sex for me.

quencher · 02/12/2016 23:13

Womanwithattitude I agree with you completely. Using free will as the basis for this argument is not strong enough in my opinion.

The person being question in this debate is the man making the decision to have sex with a person who wouldn't do it if they weren't in need of money. The men are the problem. They demand satisfaction and the disadvantaged in our society offer their body to service their needs.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 02/12/2016 23:37

Pretty much every form of sex apart from enjoyable sex done for the pleasure of it is rape according to the mumsnet jury

What a dystopian idea! That sex should be enjoyable. Hmm

I really wonder about people who think feminists are joyless prudes. On the contrary, I think we could solve the whole bloody mess by removing the shaming of women and the orgasm gap (study shows that straight women have less orgasms than gay women or any men). If we all allowed women to have enjoyable, shame-free, safe sex, there would be no need for a sex industry. Well, except for the men who are clearly violent misogynists.

WomanWithAltitude · 03/12/2016 08:34

The person being question in this debate is the man making the decision to have sex with a person who wouldn't do it if they weren't in need of money. The men are the problem

Yes, totally.

WomanWithAltitude · 03/12/2016 08:41

Pretty much every form of sex apart from enjoyable sex done for the ,pleasure of it is rape according to the mumsnet jury

And I agree with pp that this is a pretty good description of non-rapey sex. Every now and then you might have sex to make your partner happy or to conceive, but that's not the norm.

Do you really think it's ok that women are routinely expected to have sex they don't enjoy? Is this expected of men too?

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 08:53

BertrandRussell according to that definition, I have raped (or whatever the female equivalent is) my husband. Trying to conceive, I jumped on him at six in the morning demanding sex as the little smiley face had come up. To put this in context, i hadn't ovulated and was on clomid so even ovulating was a massive deal. We did the do, but afterwards he complained that it had felt weird as he wasn't horny and I'd pressured him in to it. I'd say, tough shit mate you agreed to have a baby with me and I have just ovulated for the first time in months. But technically according to that definition I did (female equivalent of) rape him.

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 08:54

Little smiley face as in ovulation predictor stick, obvs!

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 08:57

A PP said rape wasn't being redefined on this thread, but it clearly is.

If rape = unenjoyable sex then of course prostitute sex is rape.

Glad we sorted that one out after 18 pages!

MariePoppins · 03/12/2016 09:16

Also BetrandR, according to that definition, plenty of women will have been raped by their DH/DP because their willing said yes even though they weren't keen on it. Or ot was painful (due to a health condition) but wanted to do it for their DH no t because they were pressured into it but because they wanted to do something nice to them. These women might even have initiated sex Shock

Re the free will, I fully agree that we all are affected by our environment and therefore none of us really have free will. That means the prostitutes. And also means the punters who have grown up un a society of male privilege seeing women as less than/there for their pleasure etc.. Just have a quick look at adverts and you will see how this image is constantly pushed.

That means that if women do not have free will, nor do the men who use them!
It will be just as difficult for women to see they can do better than prostitution to find a way out of their problems (money etc etc) than it is for men to change their POV and see women as properly equals to them and as beings that have the choice to say NO to them or not wanting to have sex with anyone (the idea that a prostitute is a nymphomane who enjoys sex all the time is widespread IMO).

Anyway, all that to say that I truly beleive that women has as much free will than men. That's not the issue.

I wouldn't mind someone giving me their POV about the idea I raised before. That using prostitution is rape because of the reasons a men is using a prostitures rather than because of the act or the money exchanged etc... That they could easily get a ONS in a nightclub so the wish of using a prostitute isn't about having sex but about control over the women, which makes it rape iyswim.

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 09:44

YY Mariepoppins

But to the idea that men could just as easily have a ONS, that may be true for some men but what about old/disabled/obese/disfigured etc men who might find it hard to do this?

Also, is it possible that some men may feel it's somehow easier to have sex with a prostitute than go through the charade of dating/ on line/ whatever when they may have to pretend to be at least slightly interested in the woman when all they really want is no-strings?

There are 'hook up' sites specifically for no strings sex but I' believe the majority of users are men and the minority of women on it are mostly web cam/escorts appearing to be up for free no strings sex but once the man is interested a price is revealed.

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 09:47

Agree with Marie about sometimes doing it for a husband as a favour.

I do my husband plenty of favours. I'm about to sort out the mess in the kitchen that he left last night after (attempting to) make mayonnaise.

Sometimes he's really up for it and I'm a bit 'meh' but I'll do it for him, because I love him. Not because he demands it, he never would, but because I want to do it for him even though I'm not in the mood.

On what planet would that be rape??????

klassykringle · 03/12/2016 10:07

Not being in the mood is different from really not wanting to though, isn't it?

TeaPleaseLouise · 03/12/2016 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maggiethemagpie · 03/12/2016 10:28

Interesting question

If a web cam girl does stuff on camera for a client, penetrating herself would that be rape?

And seeing as no physical sexual contact has been made... would that mean she was actually raping herself?

quencher · 03/12/2016 10:40

Do you really think it's ok that women are routinely expected to have sex they don't enjoy? Is this expected of men too?i don't think we do. Men can only have penetrative sex when aroused. If they are not connecting their penis falls flat.

I jumped on him at six in the morning demanding sex as the little smiley face had come up. To put this in context, i hadn't ovulated and was on clomid so even ovulating was a massive deal. We did the do, but afterwards he complained that it had felt weird as he wasn't horny and I'd pressured him in to it. I'd say,tough shit mate you agreed to have a baby with me and I have just ovulated for the first time in months. I found that an uncomfortable reading.

If rape = unenjoyable sex then of course prostitute sex is rape. If someone is not interested in sex with you and you find ways to have sex with them. During that sexual act they can't wait for it to be over, what would you call that?

plenty of women will have been raped by their DH/DP because their willing said yes even though they weren't keen on it. Or ot was painful (due to a health condition) but wanted to do it for their DH no t because they were pressured into it but because they wanted to do something nice to them. These women might even have initiated se I guarantee you to ask the female why and hope for them to answer truthfully. I would assume the answer is most likely going to be, "if they can't have sex with me, they will have to find it somewhere else" most men feel entitled to have sex when in relationships. Women struggle all the time by trying to look younger because the basis of that is sex, they wouldn't have sex with them any more. Leave them for someone they will find sexually attractive, i.e. Younger. It's not because they are being nice to their husband and partners, they are afraid. If a sick Person cannot wait to heal in order to have sex, there is a problem. If a husband can't wait for their partner to heal, they have a problem and they are being selfish.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2016 10:50

"If a web cam girl does stuff on camera for a client, penetrating herself would that be rape?"

Not unless she was using a penis attached to a man. Because the legal definition of rape involves a penis.