Can we talk about the football sex abuse scandal?

[DeviTheGaelet]

Headline news today, NSPCC are setting up a helpline, talk that it was organised and likely to be on the same scale as Saville.

I can't think of another occasion where sex abuse has been reported on so much. I also think sex abuse/grooming was rife in the 80s/90s, I can think of several coaches that have been jailed but not of a story as big as this. Also, other grooming rings e.g. Rotherham haven't resulted in NSPCC helplines I don't think.

Is it that we are becoming more intolerant of sex abuse?
Is it topical because of Saville?
Is it magnified because everything to do with football gets generally over reported anyway?
Is it taken more seriously because primarily boys now men were affected? (I also think gender may have played a part in why "Nick" was taken so seriously in the children's home allegations).
I've posted in feminism because of the gender angle but interested in any thoughts (including being told IABU)

And yes, I agree that class pays a part. A man who isn't in a privileged position might well be portrayed as a 'rent boy', just like the girls in Rotherham had 'chosen to be prostitutes'.

I have every sympathy for these men and glad that they now feel able to tell what happened to them. At the same time i think it is undeniable that they are getting a more sympathetic hearing than girls/women in the same situation get.

I notice that there is going to be a programme on Channel 4 tonight about teachers in Mozambique who demand 'sex for grades'. I know that there won't be anything like the same outrage about it and yet the situation where youngsters are working hard and wanting to do well is very similar.

SoFeckingCross it takes one person coming forward to say this happened to them for the tower to fall.

Saville. Yes, I felt physically sick the day I watched the police announcement from the Met saying this was a serious investigation. Adam Johnson, I've hidden all the threads to do with that. Ditto Evans.

The issue that I have, responding to the original post, asking Is it taken more seriously because primarily boys now men were affected?, my answer would be yes and no. Yes because of the people involved, no because I think if high profile sportswomen said that their coach abused them I would hope it would come to light in the same way. Unfortunately we don't have that many women athletes who are in the spotlight. The footballers who have come forward aren't in the spotlight now, but if, say, Beth Tweddle, Rebecca Adlington, Ellie Simmonds, Jess Ennis said 'this also happened' I would hope it would also generate the same media attention.

I know the people who are in the media right now are men, but isn't it a positive thing that they've come forward with encouraging signals from the media that abuse within sport is a taboo that needs to be brought to light?

What does it matter the sex of the person committing the abuse? I disagree on this. I think the sex of the abuser is incredibly important. In 99% of sexual abuse cases the perpetrator is male. Why would that be? What should be done about it?

If we can't name the problem then we can't answer those questions.

Devi

WomanWithAltitude I'm not disagreeing with you, and I think this is a discussion for people with far wider reading and research than I'm capable of at the moment, I'm really sorry.

I do agree that there is a discrepancy between the validity of sexual abuse claims made my women and men, and I would like to read more into it.

I wear a short dress, high heels, red lipstick and a thong and I'm raped vaginally because I'm 'gagging for it' because I've had a glass of wine. A 10-year-old boy is told to masturbate his coach in order to get a game. Yes, I do think the two crimes are equally deplorable, and each should be considered equal in the eyes of the law. I don't know what the sentencing tariffs are, but please don't downplay the experiences of the footballers. They are as much a victim as I am.

We still have anonymity where we might never truly know how many accusers, of either sex, there are.

All I know is I believe you.

I think the sex of the abuser is incredibly important. In 99% of sexual abuse cases the perpetrator is male. Why would that be? What should be done about it?

I agree that this is important. It's a gendered issue. Prentending that it isn't only serves to cloud the issue and help perpetrators.

*WomanWithAltitude

What we are pointing out are the glaring discrepancies in how different victims are treated - by the police, in the media, and by the public.*

That is an absolutely fair point. I just don't want to detract from the men who have survived and the men who have spoken out.

massive bolding fail there, really, please, do forgive me because I want to engage in this discussion.

Boogers - I haven't downplayed anyone's experience.

We still have anonymity where we might never truly know how many accusers, of either sex, there are.

Firstly, please don't refer to rape victims as 'accusers'.

And we do have information on the number of rape victims and the number of male and female victims - the national crime survey tells us this every year (for all rapes, not just those reported).

Also, despite anonymity, the CPS have plenty of data about the cases coming to court, including the sex of the perpetrators and victims. Victims are only anonymous in the press, they're not anonymous in court.

isn't it a positive thing that they've come forward with encouraging signals from the media that abuse within sport is a taboo that needs to be brought to light?

Yes, totally agree.

boogers not on the same scale but Jessica Varnish got bad press for filing her sexual discrimination case against the British Cycling technical director Shane Sutton. That complaint was upheld.

Of course I believe the victims in this case. It's horrific. I just wish it didn't take some celebrity men saying what happened to them for people to see how serious abuse by men in power is.

However one silver lining is I hope this means the end to "offender anonymity" as Bennell is a prime example of the kind of man this legislation would protect.

Boogers I still think you're missing the point here

I sure that we all agree that the sex of either the abuser or the abused doesn't matter, it's still abuse, it's still horrible, it shouldn't happen to anyone.

And that anyone who has been abused deserves all the support they need, but pointing out that up till now this has not been the case.

Thats the point, no one is trying to 'detract from the men who have survived and the men who have spoken out.'

We're wondering why the sudden outpouring of support (and hoping this is a true change in how the victims of sexual abuse are treated by the media etc)

WomanWithAltitude I didn't intend to use the term 'accuser' in a negative way, merely as someone who has said that someone has done something that has not yet been proven in court.

I'm a rape victim. It happened between the ages of 8 to 10. I still don't know what to call it. I'm an accuser, I think so anyway. I haven't yet done anything about my rape and sexual abuse, but calling the person who did it to me 'abuser' puts it in context for me. That's where I'm coming from and that's why I use that term.

Devi you're right in a way, that you just wish it didn't take some celebrity men saying what happened to them for people to see how serious abuse by men in power is*. I would truly like to believe that if Jess Ennis or Steph Houghton had said the same about Barry Bennell then it would have been treated in the same way. But in the way that it's presented, football, it's mainly men, especially at club/elite level. It's just the way it is. Let's deal with that in a different thread, but right now, for me, it's an issue of abuse at grassroots level. Promising gymnast, promising footballer, promising athlete, promising swimmer - how do you rise above the competition? But if rising above the competition means performing sexual acts on your coach, what do you do as a 10-year-old desperate to get on the team? From the four footballers to your son going for football practice or your daughter going for dance class, how do we protect our children?

It's a grassroots thing. If you haven't read the articles and sound pieces I implore you to do so. Brian Moore is a good place to start.

SoFeckingCross can you point that out to some people up thread? We're all on the same side.

WomanWithAltitudeI didn't intend to use the term 'accuser' in a negative way, merely as someone who has said that someone has done something that has not yet been proven in court.

That sounds pretty negative to me. Essentially it's saying 'we won't believe you until a jury has convicted. And given the low conviction rate (6% ?) it's a pretty crap way to describe victims.

And it's not an outpouring of support, it's people who have waived their right to anonymity and have received favourable response in doing so.

I watched Victoria Derbyshire this morning and its awful and yes they are men but they were also abused by men. It just seems endemic for that period :( again it was mentioned that other adults must have known who were close to Bennell

I'm a rape victim. It happened between the ages of 8 to 10. I still don't know what to call it. I'm an accuser, I think so anyway. I haven't yet done anything about my rape and sexual abuse

You haven't accused anyone, so how can you possibly be an 'accuser'? Also - you know it happened whether there is ever a conviction or not. You could call yourself a victim, or a survivor, but 'accuser' is the word that rags like The Sun use when they want to imply a victim is lying.

Do you really think someone transforms from an 'accuser' to a genuine victim when a conviction happens? What message do you think that terminology gives out?

Just because our media refers to victims in that awful way, doesn't make it right. We should stand against it - it's a really nasty term to use because, like it or not, it implies disbelief.

I didn't magically change from an accuser to a victim when my rapist was convicted. I was a victim and he was a rapist from the moment he touched me, regardless of whether it was reported or whether he was convicted.

But if rising above the competition means performing sexual acts on your coach, what do you do as a 10-year-old desperate to get on the team?

I don't think it's appropriate to suggest that a child would allow themselves to be sexually abused to further their sporting career. Children don't give sexual favours.

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but it sounded like you were suggesting that a child would consent to sexual acts for personal gain.

WomanWithAltitude I am a victim. No court will ever convict my rapist. That's the way it is and I deal with that every day. And I'm not sure why you think X is a pretty crap way to describe victims. (I'm not sure what term I used that was offensive to you, which is why put it as an X)

Men are victims. Women are victims. Girls are victims. Boys are victims. By saying it's a sex thing detracts from the initial point. I'm a victim, an accuser, a survivor.

Also wanted to add boogers, that if your statement above had anything to do with your personal experience (and I sincerely hope it isn't, because that would be awful) then I apologise for stating the bleedin' obvious.

HeyRoly have you read the full thread?

HeyRoly it is based on personal experience, and it's fine. Everything in context. X post, sorry.