Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

[BeyondTheHarpy]

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

FrancisCrawford

Sorry my post should have said total hysterectomy

But seeing how things are going I wouldn't be surprised if they started lobbying for MTF getting smear tests too. Because they are afterall women and it would be transphobic not to offer this screening to them which is available to all women

Inthenick, what actually is a transwoman? Where is your cut off? Or don't you have one?

I find this a hard issue to get my head around, so any comments on my thoughts would be much appreciated. I am not as eloquent as many on this thread, but it has been playing on my mind a lot lately.

I agree with the pp who compared this issue to Islamic extremists. My problem with wholeheartedly getting behind the sparticus crew is that I can't see that your every day transgender person would act like the transactivists. When the Islamic extremists have spewed their hate, it has had an awful knock on effect for the normal Muslim people. They wouldn't dream of committing a murder or being violent, it is against their religion. These extremists categorically do not represent Muslims. I do not feel that the transactivists actually represent transwomen.

If I imagine myself in a ladies loo with a transactivist, I feel anxious. If I imagine myself in a ladies loo with a transwoman who just wants to be accepted for how they think their body should be, then I'm OK with that.

I feel it can sometimes be forgotten that these are just people, not the extremists. The decisions made out of anger towards the transactivists affects all the transwomen who don't think we should have to rename our vaginas as front holes, or lose our labels that we were born with, or our safe spaces that we have fought for and earnt.

In the same way as if I met a Muslim in the street I do not assume they are a terrorist, I cannot assume that all transwomen are transactivists who want to trample all over us as women. I can't buy into the hate against them all, so I can't feel the wish to exclude them from our spaces and deny them the permission to use the terms we use. It must be horrific to be forever labelled as other, outsider, doesn't belong, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

I cannot assume that all transwomen are transactivists who want to trample all over us as women.

None of us do. But the TAs, and those who copy their behaviour, are actually.harming trans women.

LumelaMme

The Spartacus thread was based on the Roman slave Spartacus (iirc - I only knew about it from the film), When amongst a crowd of other slaves, was asked which one of you is Spartacus? (he was being arrested) and before he could answer, one after the other, all the other slaves stood up and said I am Spartacus. The premise being, that they couldn't all be arrested, and if they all identified as Spartacus they were united in not having him singled out.

It was around the time when people felt paralysed by mis-gendering as posts were being deleted, for calling transwomen, men.

So it was a thread where people who still held the view they should be allowed to call transwomen, men just joined and said I am Spartacus, as an indicator of group solidarity.

Hope that makes sense.

Stormwhale

I agree, as it is the transactivists who are pushing for this agenda and as you will be sharing your bathroom with them, we are left between a rock and a hard place.

Because it is such an obsession with the trans-activists, there will be a lot of hoo-ha over enforcing their rights. For them, this is simply not just a place to pee. Boundaries will be pushed deliberately.

And you're absolutely right, genuine transpeople are going under the bus along with us and suffering, by association, with the activists.

Stormwhale - if you have intestinal fortitude to read through a few trans threads (chocolate and whisky will help here), I think you will see that the vast majority of posters draw very careful links between 'ordinary' trans people and 'activists'. Most people are accepting and supportive of 'ordinary' trans people. I think, though, that what a huge focus of a lot of the 'Spartacus' threads is on is on legal and policy reforms that negate and threaten women's freedoms, rights and spaces. It is also on the way that the trans narrative is affecting children. I agree that there are likely many ordinary trans people who are negatively affected by the whole debate. It is good to see that some are standing up to the TRA's, and I am personally happy to support them and stand behind them.

But can't you see that by saying no way can they come into our loos or changing rooms that you are punishing them all for the actions of a few? That doesn't seem fair.

Storm

I see gender dysphoria as a mental health condition. If people feel that their internal view of themselves and their biological sex don't match and they wish to transition, that is none of my business. But they can't expect the rest of the world to collude with them in this belief. People don't accept it. You can't make people believe something they believe to be untrue.

Anorexia is founded in a belief that you are fat when you are not, and sometimes when you are dangerously thin, to the point of death. The rest of the world are not forced or encouraged to collude in this dangerous delusion.

Transpeople, unless they pass as the opposite sex, are unlikely to get the acceptance they need. People don't see transwomen as women in every possible way. That is the reality. It's very sad. But it is not a reason to dismantle women's rights and erase women's identity and lived experience in the process. There is no solution which will work for everyone.

I'm not sure I understand you Stormwhale, because you're saying both that you don't want women to give up safe spaces and that you don't want safe spaces to exclude trans women, could you clarify?

In terms of most trans people being nice and reasonable, yes, I'm sure they are. But we don't create laws to protect us from the nice, reasonable people. We create laws to protect us from the people who aren't nice and reasonable. So most trans women would never in a million years try and take a job where they were a 'female' rape counsellor or conducted strip searches of female suspects on the grounds that they were a 'female' police officer. But I need laws and policies protecting me from the ones wh would do that.

Just as I need laws against rape to exist, even though most men will never rape. And how could we have brought in laws to make rape in marriage in illegal in the nineties, without saying over and over again that some husbands rape? And of course most husbands are lovely and I don't want them to feel bad or under the spotlight or like villains, but Women need protection from the ones who aren't lovely.

So we had to talk about rapist husbands to get those rights in law. And we now need to talk about trans people that break vulnerable women's spaces and boundaries down to get rights in law to stop them.

the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

Sounds like a reasonable and intelligent individual who has taken time to read the critiques, understand the concerns and present them dispassionately 🙄

But can't you see that by saying no way can they come into our loos or changing rooms that you are punishing them all for the actions of a few? That doesn't seem fair.

If they 'pass' then likely that they will carry on as before ...

What is the alternative? Letting every Tom, Dick and Harry who looks like Tom, Dick and Harry, but declares that they are Pam, Trish and Mary into the ladies (and other women's spaces)? If this happens women and girls suffer.

It's not about "punishing" anyone. It's about simple respect for women's boundaries, privacy, dignity and safety.

Storm

It is not women are creating this difficulty. We have been happy sharing a bathroom with trans-women for years, without a second thought. But when you are calling for legislation that allows fully intact male people who are attracted to women being allowed to share a changing room or shower with your 11 year old daughter, you have to say enough.

The bathroom debate is not about trans-activists wanting access to the bathrooms, specifically. It is about being legally recognised as women, and therefore ALL the rights accrued to women, get given to them. it is much more insidious than it first appears.

So halal meat being served in schools is Islamic extremism.

What?! I notice that no one challenged that and just nodded along.

This is one of the reasons why these threads appal me, because the gleeful painting of one group of society as a threat to humanity won't stop there, you'll get bored eventually and move on to another target.

They way you talk about trans people, is the way UKIPers and the like talk about immigrants and the way the EDL talk about Muslims.

Also, the number of people who post on these threads saying "I never realised trans people were such an issue until I read Mumsnet" - people cheer this on, when it's just another form of online radicalisation.

Well you have your views, and other people have theirs Ipity. Free speech is great, isn't it?

Who said that Pontipines?

Venus - Yay! Prejudice for everyone! Woo-hoo!

It is not women are creating this difficulty. We have been happy sharing a bathroom with trans-women for years, without a second thought. But when you are calling for legislation that allows fully intact male people who are attracted to women being allowed to share a changing room or shower with your 11 year old daughter, you have to say enough.

The bathroom debate is not about trans-activists wanting access to the bathrooms, specifically. It is about being legally recognised as women, and therefore ALL the rights accrued to women, get given to them. it is much more insidious than it first appears.

This. Absolutely.

#stillspartacus

Could anyone point out to me where the halal meat comment was?

Pontypines that comparison really doesn't work.

Pontipines, you consider my views prejudiced, I consider yours prejudiced.

I don't see any solution to that other than discussion within the limits of the law, including debate about what those limits should be.

I don't think it is radical to discuss changes in the law and policy and whether those changes should happen.

Yes, everyone has their biases and prejudices, Ipity. Including you.

Radicalization, schmadicalization.

My problem isn't really with who uses what toilet - although I do have some concerns about that, I think by and large it is self-regulating: people who 'pass' will probably not encounter a problem and nor will the people whose toilets they share.

My problem is with arguments about 'men brains' and 'lady brains', and the idea that children who behave in certain ways - even at the age of TWO - are 'trapped in the wrong body'. The trans narrative unthinkingly adopts, endorses, and strengthens, the idea that gender exists, that it matters, and that it must fit the body it is in. At worst, it is sexist and homophobic.

What are we telling our daughters, when we tell them that Jack is now Jill and must be acknowledged as such? We're telling them that Jack 'felt like a girl' and 'was a girl', because, presumably, he has some girl-feelings that are the same as theirs. So we're telling them that their feelings, responses, preferences and desires are fundamentally located within their very girlhood, rather than just 'who they are'.

We're telling them, when 'Jill' then beats them on sports day in the girls' races, that 'Jill' is actually a better kind of woman than them, and their achievements within the context of their sex are now much less - and they have little hope of changing that.

When 'Jill' puts on makeup and girls' clothing, we're telling them: that's it. That's what makes a girl. Jack felt 'just like you', so he is 'just like you', and and that's what being a girl is.

If Jack transitions at university, and is on a STEM course, we're telling them, look! There isn't an issue with girls doing science - look at Jill! She's got there, why can't you?

I'm finding this thread really helpful. After a rocky start, the majority of the discussion has been well reasoned, and avoided personal attacks on other posts. Thank you.

I'm wrestling with how we support and protect children with identity issues and how we support and protect trans adults.

Am I being idealistic to think that in a decades time this will be easier, and that the tension comes from trying to resolve the position of people having late transitions? That children who have had support to resolve their gender identity will feel less threatening to women?

I absolutely support the defence of feminism, fighting to protect the dignity and safety and freedom of women.

I'm not sure if I'm Spartacus, still working it out.

And we can no longer say 'there's no such thing as women who rape'. Which opens up a whole can of legal worms. And is an gift to every aresehole who's ever said 'bleh bleh bleh feminazis, how come you don't care about women who rape men?' - and when confronted with the facts about the legal definition of rape, sticks his fingers in his ears already.