Feminist but confused

[Unsureif]

Hi!

I am a feminist. Absolutely. I have a DS and DD and am very much in the gender neutral camp where possible, ie toys, colours, choice of adjectives.

However, I struggle with the fact that my DD has long hair and my DS doesn't and that they dress mostly as per their prescribed gender. Having said that, DD often wears DS's cast offs and DS thinks nothing of dressing up in a stereotypically girl's costume.

So, why do I feel conflicted? After all, I wear make up sometimes, wear women's clothes and have a feminine hair cut. I guess I'm struggling with telling my children they can do what they want to in life yet I'm falling into the binary of hair and clothes. And then I do it myself too?

Can anyone help me resolve my feelings about this?

[ChocChocPorridge]

Essentially they concluded male monkeys would be attracted to masculine toys, whereas female monkeys were attracted to male and female toys equally.

Yeah - but have you read those studies? They declared that the trucks were masculine, and the frying pan was feminine. They're monkeys. What do they know of frying pans and trucks? Given the choice, I suspect most monkeys would go for the truck, since they have moving parts and so are more interesting - and the bigger monkeys, ie. the male ones, are obviously the ones who'd get first choice!

[IAmAmy]

ChocChoc I don't think it's you enforcing gender norms, it's the girls' sections doing it. They're pushing girls towards that sort of clothing, bombarding us with pink/the kind of clothing you describe. It's great your sons feel free to wear pink, leggings and so on, as they and all boys should be able to.

[IAmAmy]

I'm sure many know about it but "Delusions of Gender" by Cordelia Fine is excellent on neurosexism.

As for "dressing like a boy/girl" this is part of the problem. There should be no telling children to dress like one or the other as even styles of dress push us into our prescribed roles. Look at the designs and styles of clothing, shorts for girls being so much shorter than those for boys, clothing for boys designed for comfort, to make activity easier whilst for girls designed to look "feminine" and with appearance/style in mind, sends a message about what each should be doing I think.

[Pizanfan]

Choc

The study I read used trucks and a plush stuffed toys. Of the 2 the plush toy would be the more attractive to a monkey. And the monkeys were observed in different behaviours, lone, small and large group.

The results were almost identical to those of adolesant children, and considering monkeys couldn't have societal norms forced upon them it's safe to say males and females differ in their choices, regardless of what those choices are.

There are also studies of wild female chimps using sticks as dolls, and as practice for mothering their own children.

[ChocChocPorridge]

Why would a plush toy be more attractive to a monkey? Because it looks like a baby monkey?

In which case, why would a plush toy be attractive to human girls? Human babies don't look like that!

It seems to me that it's pushing humo-normativity (if such a word could be made up - I know there's a real one, but I've forgotten it) on monkeys no?

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Found the study as reported in new scientist - this bit is more interesting:

In general the males preferred to play with wheeled toys, such as dumper trucks, over plush dolls, while female monkeys played with both kinds of toys

ie. at least in monkeys, there is no such thing as a 'girls' toy

Two toys, one wheeled and one plush, were placed 10 metres apart. At first the monkeys formed a circle around a toy, but eventually one would snatch the toy and run off. Other monkeys soon joined in the fun, Wallen says

ie. physical ability will make a difference, because you can snatch the toy more - males are bigger, and I would expect that whilst there is no socialisation with respect to toys, there certain is going to be some with respect to letting more violent male monkeys get their way!

[MrsJayy]

I honestly dont know what your dilema is. Your children are individuals allowing them to grow as that means they develop their own personality and what not. Girls having long hair doesnt mean she is just for decoration and a pretty little thing she is 3 years old let her and her brother discover who they are by providing similar experiences . 1 of my adukt dds thinks unicons shit rainbows but she is a feminist.

[BrillianaHarvey]

I am a feminist. I like to dress up in beautiful clothes and spend an hour putting on makeup and wear high heels. I also like to wear jeans and a jumper and trainers.
I think, as previous posters have suggested, the issue is more that these choices are not available to boys and men in our culture, though they are in other times and places, as any visit to an art gallery will demonstrate.
I think the truly feminist parenting choice is to give a boy and a girl equal freedoms in choice of clothes and hairstyle as they grow towards their own sense of themselves relative to their biological sex and the gender expectations of their culture. What matters to us is who they are and how they choose to express that.
Again, as other posters have said, peer pressure is very powerful: we need to find a way of recognising its impact while communicating to our children how little we share its agenda.

[Unsureif]

Thank you, interesting points. Will read a bit more.

Brilliana, I think your posts sums things up very well. I always give my children choices. My DS doesn't realise that he can't be all the things the girls "are" ie princesses/witches/nurses dresses. But it won't be long before he is influenced by his peers I guess. He also does dancing!

[OlennasWimple]

I just feel that for all my / DH's influencing on DD that she can do what she wants to do, be what she wants to be etc, external factors are so strong that it's tiring pushing against them all the time.

As she has got older, she has got more pink and feminised, as exemplified by her choice of clothes and hair style. DD used to play going out to work, leaving me with her six babies to look after (!!). Now she plays being a princess, staying at home in her castle looking after her six babies. Of course there are lots of reasons why this might be the case, but I would put a lot of money on a prime factor being her fairly constant exposure to a society that heavily promotes pink princess stuff to girls