Feminist but confused

[Unsureif]

Hi!

I am a feminist. Absolutely. I have a DS and DD and am very much in the gender neutral camp where possible, ie toys, colours, choice of adjectives.

However, I struggle with the fact that my DD has long hair and my DS doesn't and that they dress mostly as per their prescribed gender. Having said that, DD often wears DS's cast offs and DS thinks nothing of dressing up in a stereotypically girl's costume.

So, why do I feel conflicted? After all, I wear make up sometimes, wear women's clothes and have a feminine hair cut. I guess I'm struggling with telling my children they can do what they want to in life yet I'm falling into the binary of hair and clothes. And then I do it myself too?

Can anyone help me resolve my feelings about this?

[OlennasWimple]

I just feel that for all my / DH's influencing on DD that she can do what she wants to do, be what she wants to be etc, external factors are so strong that it's tiring pushing against them all the time.

As she has got older, she has got more pink and feminised, as exemplified by her choice of clothes and hair style. DD used to play going out to work, leaving me with her six babies to look after (!!). Now she plays being a princess, staying at home in her castle looking after her six babies. Of course there are lots of reasons why this might be the case, but I would put a lot of money on a prime factor being her fairly constant exposure to a society that heavily promotes pink princess stuff to girls

[Unsureif]

Thank you, interesting points. Will read a bit more.

Brilliana, I think your posts sums things up very well. I always give my children choices. My DS doesn't realise that he can't be all the things the girls "are" ie princesses/witches/nurses dresses. But it won't be long before he is influenced by his peers I guess. He also does dancing!

[BrillianaHarvey]

I am a feminist. I like to dress up in beautiful clothes and spend an hour putting on makeup and wear high heels. I also like to wear jeans and a jumper and trainers.
I think, as previous posters have suggested, the issue is more that these choices are not available to boys and men in our culture, though they are in other times and places, as any visit to an art gallery will demonstrate.
I think the truly feminist parenting choice is to give a boy and a girl equal freedoms in choice of clothes and hairstyle as they grow towards their own sense of themselves relative to their biological sex and the gender expectations of their culture. What matters to us is who they are and how they choose to express that.
Again, as other posters have said, peer pressure is very powerful: we need to find a way of recognising its impact while communicating to our children how little we share its agenda.

[MrsJayy]

I honestly dont know what your dilema is. Your children are individuals allowing them to grow as that means they develop their own personality and what not. Girls having long hair doesnt mean she is just for decoration and a pretty little thing she is 3 years old let her and her brother discover who they are by providing similar experiences . 1 of my adukt dds thinks unicons shit rainbows but she is a feminist.

[ChocChocPorridge]

Why would a plush toy be more attractive to a monkey? Because it looks like a baby monkey?

In which case, why would a plush toy be attractive to human girls? Human babies don't look like that!

It seems to me that it's pushing humo-normativity (if such a word could be made up - I know there's a real one, but I've forgotten it) on monkeys no?

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Found the study as reported in new scientist - this bit is more interesting:

In general the males preferred to play with wheeled toys, such as dumper trucks, over plush dolls, while female monkeys played with both kinds of toys

ie. at least in monkeys, there is no such thing as a 'girls' toy

Two toys, one wheeled and one plush, were placed 10 metres apart. At first the monkeys formed a circle around a toy, but eventually one would snatch the toy and run off. Other monkeys soon joined in the fun, Wallen says

ie. physical ability will make a difference, because you can snatch the toy more - males are bigger, and I would expect that whilst there is no socialisation with respect to toys, there certain is going to be some with respect to letting more violent male monkeys get their way!

[Pizanfan]

Choc

The study I read used trucks and a plush stuffed toys. Of the 2 the plush toy would be the more attractive to a monkey. And the monkeys were observed in different behaviours, lone, small and large group.

The results were almost identical to those of adolesant children, and considering monkeys couldn't have societal norms forced upon them it's safe to say males and females differ in their choices, regardless of what those choices are.

There are also studies of wild female chimps using sticks as dolls, and as practice for mothering their own children.

[IAmAmy]

I'm sure many know about it but "Delusions of Gender" by Cordelia Fine is excellent on neurosexism.

As for "dressing like a boy/girl" this is part of the problem. There should be no telling children to dress like one or the other as even styles of dress push us into our prescribed roles. Look at the designs and styles of clothing, shorts for girls being so much shorter than those for boys, clothing for boys designed for comfort, to make activity easier whilst for girls designed to look "feminine" and with appearance/style in mind, sends a message about what each should be doing I think.

[IAmAmy]

ChocChoc I don't think it's you enforcing gender norms, it's the girls' sections doing it. They're pushing girls towards that sort of clothing, bombarding us with pink/the kind of clothing you describe. It's great your sons feel free to wear pink, leggings and so on, as they and all boys should be able to.

[ChocChocPorridge]

Essentially they concluded male monkeys would be attracted to masculine toys, whereas female monkeys were attracted to male and female toys equally.

Yeah - but have you read those studies? They declared that the trucks were masculine, and the frying pan was feminine. They're monkeys. What do they know of frying pans and trucks? Given the choice, I suspect most monkeys would go for the truck, since they have moving parts and so are more interesting - and the bigger monkeys, ie. the male ones, are obviously the ones who'd get first choice!

[XinnaJane]

Well fitness that's the point- we've conditioned them to want impractical hair because it looks feminine. And no tying it up isn't rocket science, but when you're 3 and doing rough and tumble it comes out and gets in your face. you have to stop what you're doing and put it back up again

[ChocChocPorridge]

I understand this - I have two boys, 3 and 6 (one with standard short back and sides, one with longer hair - but the longer hair is curly so it stays close to his head - and provokes head rubs from about 30% of the people he meets!)

My older one has had trainers and trousers from the girls section (better colours, slimmer fit), the youngest adores pink, and rocks a pair of leggings - but I still recoil from most of the stuff in the girls section - too frilly or pleated or bedazzled - and I'm trying to figure out if it's my personal taste (I'd never wear any of that stuff either) or that I'm enforcing gender norms.

I try to just let them do what they want, and pick clothes that I would wear - because supporting them if they want to wear wellies and a tutu is part of being a parent, but so is suggesting that if they do that, people will think it's a bit odd - which is fine, but they should be prepared for that.

[Pizanfan]

Cisoff

I'd fear you are confusing your children a touch, telling both they can do anything, but ensuring DD only plays girls sports. Depending on the age of DD she may actually hold a physiological advantage, for example, tough rugby finds girls excel beyond boys up until the age of 12/13 (depending on individual), and when players transition into contact the genders are split. That said I know a few girls who have refused to quit, as there was no girls team, so they have played 2 years of contact before sourcing girls teams (as that when physiological advantage got too large in favour of boys).

Don't be afraid to allow your DD to compete with boys early on, chances are she'll excell.

With regards to the primate studies, I don't remember the names off the top of my head, but one is about 15 years old involving Rhesus monkeys, and the other more recent involving chimpanzees (longer term study).

Essentially they concluded male monkeys would be attracted to masculine toys, whereas female monkeys were attracted to male and female toys equally.

There are also biological studies that show masculine traits relation to Androgen level exposure, and other similar things.

Unsureif

There was no judgement intended in my comments, I just followed the 'Sasha' case for a while, and worry about the damage potentially done to the poor child, who has clearly been manipulated, as he plays out anti gender rhetoric on camera like a performaing seal.

[FitnessFad]

But what little girl wants to look like a boy? Surely it's easy enough to tie it up.

[XinnaJane]

One of the problems I find fitness, going back to the hair issue, is that long 'girls' hair can actually be quite limiting. I see girls all the time in the playground who can't really climb properly because they have hair in their faces. their play having to be interrupted to put clips in etc. If you have short boys hair you are not having an artificial, aesthetic limit placed on you all the time.

[FitnessFad]

What exactly is wrong with a girl dressing as a girl, and a boy as a boy? I don't understand - who exactly is it a problem for?

[libprog]

Not like you have much of a say anyway. If most girls your DD has contact with have long hair, what do you think the chances are she will also "want" to have long hair? My boss told me a story about a kid his kids know, their DS loved ballet, until he once wore his outfit (ballerina) outside of ballet class and got bullied for it. Now he doesn't do it anymore. There will always be outside influences that you can't control. So the best you can do, is as you are doing - not choose for them and offer critical thinking to the choices they do make.

[Unsureif]

Pizanfan, if you were to look at my children they are very obviously a boy and a girl. I'm not bringing them up absent of gender (as the cultural gender binary dictates). DD knows she is a girl and likewise ds knows he's a boy. I have read the book Pink brain blue brain and found it interesting. DD is definitely drawn to dolls and nurturing whereas DS is less so even though he has had a doll etc forever.

I have noticed the differing comments they receive from people- ds is clever and funny and DD is pretty with adorable hair. But I'm quick to point out that DD is the bravest kid I know and that ds is very sensitive or whatever is relevant.

[Cisoff]

I'm less concerned with gender neutral appearances than I am with actual practice. My girls play a "girls" sport, because I want them to run around and be fit and experience sporting competitiveness with their peers without being taken out by someone biologically advantaged due to their sex.

They both wear their hair how they like it (stupidly long, and longish). I'm under no illusions that this is part of social conditioning. My son has short hair. He doesn't care about hair, and wants to spend as little time on it as possible. Of course society doesn't value him so much on his looks, so I'm under no illusions there, either.

I personally have short hair - quite short, actually. I like it short, I wear it short because I think it suits me. If I thought I'd look 'better' with long hair, I'd grow it. I dress for comfort, always. But that means selecting colours that 'suit' me. And in summer, it's usually roomy dresses because, comfort.

I'm constantly drumming into them that their sex doesn't matter when it comes to academia, future leadership positions, parental status etc. And I point out obvious discrimination when I see it. They know that Hillary Clinton would never have even run for president, for example, had she been had kids to 3 different men, and boasted about cock grabbing.

How they look or how they choose to look, or how I chose to present them when they were very little is secondary to all that.

"There are also biological evidence of children pre disposed to masculine and feminine toys, including use of primates etc" Is there? Where?

[Pizanfan]

OP

I am hesitant to talk about this subject, because it is a minefield of epic proportions.

There are studied positives and negatives of gender neutral childhoods, however so little is known it's up to you to risk the psychological and social well being of your child.

I am not anti gender neutrality, however I think you have to consider all effects it will have on your children.

There are also biological evidence of children pre disposed to masculine and feminine toys, including use of primates etc...

Think carefully, as someone else said, let the child direct where they want to go, but most importantly don't do anything that will negatively impact the childs long term development.

[OlennasWimple]

Oh OP, despite all my best endeavours we have two gender stereotyped DC in terms of toys, interests and appearances. They have a couple of overlaps (notably Lego) and occasionally DD will want to kick a ball around with DS or DS will play imagination games with DD, but these are rare and increasingly so.

[IAmAmy]

Well I'm glad to hear that, I did realise when I actually went to work experience that they weren't expected but it's common advice given from what I've seen and heard.

Generally in terms of clothing women and girls are judged far more than boys or men. We're judged negatively if we don't conform to what's deemed "feminine" in terms of dress and appearance. It's seen as unacceptable for boys to appear what would be seen as "feminine" because of the connotations of that and how society views the status of women, in my opinion. And you should see how (some) boys talk about girls who don't dress or appear as they feel girls should.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

No , practicality is not everything and brushing hair is hardly difficult.

Amy I don't know who told you high heels are expected for interviews or work experience, or lord knows what sort of work experience they were thinking of or who would be doing the interviewing but that is utter tosh.

Does the person who told you that really think employers are so stupid as to use heel height as a recruiting factor? They/we really aren't. If your shoes and clothes are dirty and scruffy, fair enough, you will be judged but heel height? No.

[XinnaJane]

lass surely when you have a toddler practicality is everything! And short hair is absolutely more practical - think of the time saved in brushing alone

[IAmAmy]

That might be so but there are still formal settings where women and girls are expected to conform to what's determined "feminine" dress, settings in which say high heels are almost expected it seems (I was told they'd be the best bet for work experience and any interviews in future) and girls are judged for not dressing in ways considered feminine. At the same time I think the reason boys aren't as free to wear clothing "for girls" is because it's associated with being feminine, which is a negative/weak trait and one which boys would be laughed at for showing due to the link with women/girls. That's without going into how what clothes for girls and women are designed to do in terms of appearance.

In terms of work I think expecting a suit and tie for men is probably unfair. Though at the same time it's still not illegal as far as I know for employers to insist women wear make up and heels for example, the latter being far more damaging (there was a petition about that quite recently).

There is also the issue away from clothing but with toys and how they're gendered to push children into certain "boxes", generally ones of relative weakness and considered lesser for girls.

[XinnaJane]

This is something I struggle with for myself and my DC. Basically I know that if I had a totally free choice, I would have a short, practical, man's haircut. I haven't done this because I am still tied by how people think about my looks. I don't want to look 'butch'. We are all products of our culture and actually there's a limit to how far you can break out of that.