LGBT Talks in School

[GerbilHeaven]

I've posted this here because I'm aware that many MN'ers are fed-up of the Trans threads popping up everywhere, and frankly, I need someone to put some sense into the way I feel. I've NC - I've been on MN a few years. I am not goading nor trolling.

DD(11) returned from school earlier and announced that they'd had a group of people into an hour long assembly to discuss anti-bullying. She then announced that the biggest thing they spoke about was "Trans- something" (DD's words - please remember she's 11) and that they'd told her that men can have vaginas. One of the speakers said that they were now a man despite being born as a woman and that she encouraged the children to encourage trans and not discourage trans. I asked DD what she'd learnt and she said that she'd found the whole event to be less on anti-bullying and more on "Trans". The speaker also told them that they (the children) should now educate their parents and teachers and challenge anything that they said.

I have to admit I'm a bit baffled and pissed off about the whole thing. I don't consider Year 7 to be ready for anything like this and considering that they send home sex-ed permission slips, I'm wondering where the hell they didn't warn parents about this in advance. I would have like the chance to discuss this issue with my daughter before she's met with a large powerpoint proclaiming that Men also have vaginas.

I'm not expressing myself correctly here, and there's no doubt I'd cause an almighty shit storm if I posted this elsewhere, but I truly, truly don't feel comfortable with this aspect of education.

*That doesnt make any sense, what youre saying is:
some peoples opinion that their body and personality don't match is a FACT
but
your own opinion that it isnt possible to have a matching body and personality is Just An Opinion.

Why is the first opinion treated as a fact??*

No, I think what Amelia was saying is that it is a FACT that there are some people in the world who FEEL that their bodies and personalities don't match. We might not agree with them that there is such a thing as a male or female personality, but it is nevertheless a fact that they FEEL that way.

Whereas my opinion that there is no such thing as a male or female personality is an OPINION in that, as far as I know, thee is no absolute proof that it's true.

Vincent, I could say "it is a fact that I believe it isn't possible to have a matching body and personality". My belief is an opinion, though it is a fact that I hold that belief.

Similarly, it is a fact that some people believe their body and personality don't match. Their belief is an opinion, though it is a fact that some people hold that belief.

I don't think it is appropriate for me to express my own opinions very much in school, because:

1. I teach science so students (particularly younger ones) assume what I tell them is fact.
2. It could seem distressing and dismissive to any students struggling with these issues.
3. I need to ensure I create as safe a space as possible to allow the students to figure the stuff out for themselves. Expressing strong opinions is more likely to stifle debate and prevent students from engaging in grown up discussion.

What teachers can / can't / should / shouldn't say is sometimes very different from what parents want / don't want them to say. In most classes there will be children whose parents have wildly different views, and on anything even remotely controversial teachers simply have to stick pretty close to the middle ground.

But then the two things arent comparable?

IE yes it is a fact that some people believe in x, but it is also a fact that other people dont believe in x. Either way, the beliefs in question are opinions not facts.

Teachers should be able to express that these are opinions and that opinions conflict with each other, and what evidence there is for/against those opinions. If discussing gender, shouldnt teachers have a responsibility to be clear that the genderist view is a theory and that there are opposing theories?

Okay Amelia I understand and accept your position on not teaching your opinion as fact. Teachers and schools shouldnt be mouthpieces for other peoples opinions either though, and these sorts of events make them that.

You're welcome ghostly. It's difficult but maybe talk to your daughter about gender stereotyping and how no-one should be limited by being a girl or boy, then ask if she's noticed any way in which it happens and have a discussion from there? That might also help generally if she's feeling pushed into a certain role at school in terms of subject, sport etc. Then also could help with understanding but also question outdated gender roles.

Thank you very much for saying that Hummus!

I totally agree, and I am appalled at what the OP describes. For the reasons I explained earlier, and also because it will be very confusing for them when they then learn in science that there are male body parts and female body parts. (And there is already enough confusion amongst year 7s about their own body parts and sex.)

Fortunately nothing like this has happened in my school so far. I don't know what I would do if it did because I need to keep my job.

The far left are cunning, they always go for the kids first.

I really dont care if someone is transgender, but stop polluting 11 year olds mind with crap !

I don't consider Year 7 to be ready for anything like this and considering that they send home sex-ed permission slips, I'm wondering where the hell they didn't warn parents about this in advance.

Just to pick up on this, schools have a (I think statutory) obligation to educate children about LBGT issues and to support students who may be affected. It does get checked up on in Ofsted inspections. It sounds like the school haven't bothered to check the full content of the assembly, or at least haven't thought it through properly. Simply another box-ticking exercise.

In year 7 we certainly don't send home sex-ed permission slips, it is taught as part of the science curriculum. I don't know about the relationships stuff they do in PSHE, as I am not responsible for that, but I seriously doubt it. I am surprised that there are other schools who do.

**IAmAmy - that's what teenagers and trans people have described it as feeling. I'm not trans. I have no idea how it what it's like to feel your body and mind don't match. And I'm not going to deny that that's how they feel. If they have a male body but feel like a girl, I'm not going to deny them that. If that's their experience then I'm not going to just shit on it because I think I know best.

As a result, if I'm looking at trans issues we look at the experiences of trans people and we'll discuss it.

I don't believe personally in binary gender (despite many claims on this thread that i have damaging views and promote homophobia and narrow gender norms).
But at work i have a duty to teach PSHE, relationships education and LGBT comes up. It's not my job at school to spout my opinion on gender issues or invalidate the many experiences of trans people just because I view gender as a social spectrum.

I can't stand the kind of thing that the OP spoke about, just don't believe that discussion of trans issues is brainwashing.

Some of the replies to my post are exactly the reason why I felt there's a desire for an echo chamber on here and why I left it.

AmeliaLeopard - You seem to be closer to me: shocked and disgusted at what happened in the OP but very aware that it's a topic that does come up in school, its difficukt to deal with sensitively and that it's not our place to run our opinions at school.
You put it much better than me.

Maisy what would you say to a child who asked what the mind and personality of a girl was?

I have no idea how it what it's like to feel your body and mind don't match. How should my mind match my body ? My body is what it is. My mind and feelings are what they are. What should my mind feel like as a woman? And why does a man feel he knows what that should be?

Amelia and Maisy
How do you explain to children what 'feeling llike a boy' or 'felling like a girl' feels?
Are you able to tell the teenagers 'this what the personality of a girl/boy is'?

I fully agree that, within a classroom, you can not say something that would invalidate feelings of some of the teenagers.
In the same way, you dont want to validate feelings that have no basis, the same way you wouldnt validate the feeling of being big/too big from a girl who is anorexic.

The issue I have is that that sort of talk is based on the assumption that boys and girls are different, so different theycould a completely different species. So they feel and think and have a different mind.
Saying that 'a boy can have the mind and personality of a girl' reinforces that idea which isnt good imo.

I have no issue on how to work it in sensitive way btw. And I woud be very curious to see how counsellor/psychiatrist who support teenagers who are thinking about transitioning actually broach these subjects.

I just feel that, in some ways, we are doomed if we support the theories of transactivists but are also doomed if we dont (as we take the risk of annihilating teenagers who DO have some major issues with defining who they are)

scallop this is the thing.

It all comes down the 'feeling like a woman'. I have no idea how it feels to be a woman.
The best that can make me different from a man is the fact I did feel the need to procreate and carry a child. But I am very aware that not all women do and it doesn't mean they are not a woman.
I have also wondered about the influence of hormones, having periods and fluctuating hormones etc... but I am not so sure of their REAL influence re behaviour and temperament etc..
Would for example having a higher level of testosterone make someone more aggressive? A higher level of oestrogen more nurturing etc... And would that be enough to make a difference between men and women, to 'make' someone a man or a woman?

I could understand much better the wish to live like a woman (or a man).

Oh I can totally understand wanting to live as a woman or man in the framework of society's unrelenting focus on stereotypes and expectations for men and women. I still don't see how your mind can/can't match your body. It can/cannot match society's expectations but not match your body ? A human being is a whole. Mind and body aren't separate. They are what make the complete person.

Maisy perhaps this is where we differ. I've have felt many times that I do not think or behave as a 'typical' woman. I can well believe men and women feeling like that perhaps on a greater basis. However, I am still a woman. I don't have specific feelings that make me a woman. I have feelings that take me out of the boundaries of a stereotypical woman (as defined by society). Regularly. Maybe that is why we are questioning this dialogue more than you?

I thought that the very definition of transgender was an initial diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

When did that change??? I should think it would be pretty obvious to anybody if a child felt genuine disgust over their genitals and therefore may be trans. But blindingly obvious to everybody that a child simply not conforming to gender stereotypes is just that.

Any responsible talk on transgenderism should include gender dysphoria. But I'm willing to bet those year 7s were not asked how they felt about their genitalia.

I can understand dysphoria - that some part of you isn't right, that you need it changed/gone.

So a man could feel that their penis is wrong, it doesn't belong on their body - but that doesn't follow then that that makes them a woman - it makes them a dysphoric man. They can't know what it's like to be a woman, therefore they can't feel like they are one. All they can feel is that what they have is wrong - you can desire, but not actually understand what it is to have a body part you never had - any more than a colour-blind person can really understand what the colours they can't see are. Even if they have surgery, they'll still never know what it's like to have a vagina, and what I find horrifyingly sad is that we're not honest about that.

I think that 'gender dysphoria' has replaced dysphoria regarding some physical aspect of their bodies. That being unhappy about 'being a man' is separate from being unhappy about having a penis.

Even so, I fail to see why it's always that woman == !man

I've never been more thankful that both my children are grown up (after a fashion) and this has passed them by. (Despite my youngest son who wore a necklace and earrings every Christmas day for years).

It isn't choc.

Gender dysphoria has been the cornerstone of the diagnosis. The fact that this has been replaced with preferential gender roles, is inexplicable.

Maisy I would be horrified if any of my teachers felt there was such a thing as "the personality and mind of a girl". My school is keen on girls being ourselves and developing our own personalities and minds, its ethos goes entirely against such backward thinking in fact. I'm not denying how anyone feels but to explain it as a boy having the "mind of a girl" or vice versa is in my opinion extremely damaging. They should be helped to feel there's nothing wrong with their bodies or their minds, to be free to live as they want in their bodies and not be judged against society's ideals of "masculine" or "feminine" traits. You've also still not explained what you believe "the personality and mind of a girl" to be?