LGBT Talks in School

[GerbilHeaven]

I've posted this here because I'm aware that many MN'ers are fed-up of the Trans threads popping up everywhere, and frankly, I need someone to put some sense into the way I feel. I've NC - I've been on MN a few years. I am not goading nor trolling.

DD(11) returned from school earlier and announced that they'd had a group of people into an hour long assembly to discuss anti-bullying. She then announced that the biggest thing they spoke about was "Trans- something" (DD's words - please remember she's 11) and that they'd told her that men can have vaginas. One of the speakers said that they were now a man despite being born as a woman and that she encouraged the children to encourage trans and not discourage trans. I asked DD what she'd learnt and she said that she'd found the whole event to be less on anti-bullying and more on "Trans". The speaker also told them that they (the children) should now educate their parents and teachers and challenge anything that they said.

I have to admit I'm a bit baffled and pissed off about the whole thing. I don't consider Year 7 to be ready for anything like this and considering that they send home sex-ed permission slips, I'm wondering where the hell they didn't warn parents about this in advance. I would have like the chance to discuss this issue with my daughter before she's met with a large powerpoint proclaiming that Men also have vaginas.

I'm not expressing myself correctly here, and there's no doubt I'd cause an almighty shit storm if I posted this elsewhere, but I truly, truly don't feel comfortable with this aspect of education.

exactly somedyke..
well put.
So if a girl is not into make up and pink sparkly shit,, and (say) enjoys engineering and science, then she should be encouraged to grow a penis?
Just WTAF???
why are teachers bleating this arrant nonsense?

somedyke I'm so relieved to hear you say that.
I'm tired of being accused of being transphobic. I'm not I just don't believe that we have to conform to a gender at all. If a girl wants to play football/wear jeans/love science that doesn't make her a boy or someone that wants to be a boy.
It's just what she likes so go for it I say.
A friend has a son who is very artistic and musical. According to his dad this makes him 'like a gay' (I quote)
FFS just let people do what they want.

A friend has a son who is very artistic and musical. According to his dad this makes him 'like a gay' (I quote)

I would divorce a man for saying something like this.

Yep it's my friend's husband who said this
I kid you not

Peak trans indeed. Makes the fact that Loose Women are now to have a transwoman as a panellist even less surprising.
www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/loose-women-to-make-history-as-india-willoughby-becomes-first-transwoman-to-guest-host-allfemale-a3397171.html

Because it doesn't take umpteen degrees to figure out that an effeminate gay lad might very easily, based on this and their own inclinations, conclude that 'liking' boys and wanting to be pink and sparkly means they have the personality and mind of a girl! Hence are trans (rather than just plain ole gay!)

How does this argument differ from the one which was used to oppose the introduction of teaching of homosexuality and lesbianism in schools; that children who are still learning about their sexuality, and may be feeling confused, will conclude that they are gay?

Bumbledumb If a child thinks they are gay and has a few homosexual experiences but then decides they are actually attracted to the opposite sex, fine, no harm done.
If they decide they are trans and take blockers and hormones, then change their mind - quite a lot of permanent changes that can't be reversed
(and before anyone says, of course if a child realises they are gay and remains in same sex relationships for the rest of their life, obviously no harm done then either)
Being gay does not require medication or bit of the body to be cut off, that's the difference

I know a preteen boy with chin length hair and a teen girl with a short pixie style cut and both complain that other kids regularly ask them if theyre transgender and when they say 'no' a common response is "well why do you have your hair like that then?"

It is worse now by a large amount than it was five years ago, let alone ten. Twenty years ago when I was in school myself grunge, goth and metal kids were everywhere, loads of boys in makeup, long hair, even big hippy skirts and skin tight "girls" tees, indie girls wore a uniform of baggy jeans and oversized tees, all from the mens section.

It has got so bad now. These sorts of talks feed the picking and the bullying and ostracisation that "gender non conforming" kids, gay or not, are subjected to. These kids I know complain this happens all the time, Ive witnessed it many times. Kids are being told the only way to understand choices about clothes, hair etc is via trans, and then even the 'kind' kids harass non-conformers to "come out".

Well said SomeDyke. And VincentVL I'm appalled that kids are being teased and accused of being trans because of a hair cut. I posted this elsewhere but this is a better place to put it. …. I’ve just read a blog that has resonated so much with me that I feel I have to share it. It all makes so much sense to me – why can’t anyone else see this too?

raisingmyrainbow.com/2016/02/21/the-new-gender-binary/

So I know nothing else about this person other than what I’ve read on that page above, but what he/she says about supporting his/her son who is gender non-conforming is so refreshing. His/her son doesn’t say he’s a girl: “He says he’s a boy who only likes girl things and wants to be treated like a girl”. It makes absolutely no sense to me to convince gender non-conforming children that they must be trans. I feel like the whole world has become brain-washed somehow. Am I the only one that can see the Emperor has no clothes? Or is it me? I sincerely do believe that transgenderism (not sure if that’s the right term – sorry if it isn’t – I have no intention of offending anyone here) exists and is right for some, but it is surely not the right thing for every gender non-conforming child.
I'm feeling so sad for children growing up in today's world that they can't just be themselves and instead feel they have to change their bodies to conform to society's limited view of binary gender.

Wow. I've never seen such anti-trans views as the majority in my life. Safe to say that I've realised quite quickly that certain topics here on Mumsnet aren't for debate but just an echo chamber where any other view gets shouted down.
I'm certainly not promoting homophobic or gender conformity, simply stating that within secondary schools it's perfectly appropriate to explain what trans is, just as we would explain homosexuality and bisexuality in an age appropriate way. Trans people feel their body and personality/identity fundamentally don't match. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I'm quite a tomboy but my sense of being a woman is so ingrained that it would never cross my mind to think I should be a man. I have friends who are identify as butch lesbian, and they feel very much like a woman. They're not going to suddenly want to be a bloke.
Somebody isn't just going to wake up one morning and decide to change genders, and I trust the medical professionals who oversee cases. After all they're they experts.

Years ago i was wary of covering things like that in school, but then i worked with teenagers and young adulys who face those issues and became much more open minded.
Children do experience these issues/hear about issues in the press, from friends etc and there's a big difference between explaining things in a way that is appropriate and responds to teenage questions and actively promoting that everyone should be trans.
Anyway, I'm going to leave this echo chamber as there's no space for actual debate.

you see Maisy that is typical - someone disagrees with your utterly ridiculous statement and you huff off saying there is no room for debate...
Okkkkk

all children face these issues. The fact that some small number of kids are being validated because of the unexamined lobbying activities of adults is hardly laudable if it means that some other number of kids are being invalidated and pressured into identifying as something they are not.

Its like forcing the whole school to say prayers when only a minority follow the specific religion. Say your prayers if you want to, the rest have a right to refuse.

Trans people feel their body and personality/identity fundamentally don't match. There's nothing wrong with saying that.

Except for the fact that the whole idea that you have to have a 'matching personality and body' is bollocks anyway. You can have any personality with the body you've got. There's no such thing as a girl personality and a boy personality.

Besides, there's a whole world of difference between telling children that some people feel unhappy being a boy or a girl and telling them that some men have vaginas ffs.

Maisy you said "somebody may have the body of a boy but the personality and mind of a girl". What on Earth do you feel is the "personality and mind of a girl"? I'd be pretty annoyed if one of my teachers thought like that.

To be fair to Maisy, explaining these ideas to children and teenagers is hugely difficult. And you do HAVE to respect other people's point of view. I think gender is a load of bollocks, but lots of people don't. As a teacher I simply cannot teach "gender is bollocks" as a fact.

So saying "some people feel that their body and personality don't match" is fine IMO. It is a statement of absolute fact. If necessary (and with older students) I might discuss that some people decide to change their body to fit how they want it to be (and link with the work we do on body image), some people change their personality (and link with peer pressure) and some people accept themselves as they are (and link with anti-bullying work about how people are different).

I, personally, don't think that it is possible to have a matching body and personality, but I am not allowed to teach that as a fact because it is my opinion.

That doesnt make any sense, what youre saying is:
some peoples opinion that their body and personality don't match is a FACT
but
your own opinion that it isnt possible to have a matching body and personality is Just An Opinion.

Why is the first opinion treated as a fact??

Amelia I'm a teenager myself. My issue is with "the body of a boy but personality and mind of a girl" or vice versa. This is a hugely damaging notion to teach anyone. I'd like to know what "the personality and mind of a girl" is?

IAmAmy Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. And also to help me get my head around it too - how would you describe the real angst and trauma that transgender people go through? I know you're not going through it and I'm not suggesting you should know, but how would you describe it in a different way to Amelia?

I don't know enough to say and I certainly don't dismiss what transgender people go through. They need support and help to live freely and happily. I think it could be down to gender stereotyping and notions of "masculinity" and "femininity" proscribed by society, pushing us to behave and act in a certain way depending on our sex, which starts almost from birth. So many believe it's natural for girls to act in a certain way and boys in others, so anyone who doesn't is made to feel they don't "fit" their body, or their "mind" is that of a girl when they're a boy or vice versa. I want no gender stereotyping and children to be free to be who they are.

How is the trauma experienced by people who id as trans any different to the trauma experienced by everyone else when gender stereotypes are used to limit us, or any different to the trauma experienced by anyone else with body hatred issues??

Thanks IAmAmy that's a measured and thoughtful response. I suppose what I'm trying to ask (and I'll open this up to everyone now!) is how do we explain trans to children & adolescents? If what Amelia quoted "some people feel that their body and personality don't match" is wrong, what exactly should we be saying? I was trying to explain it to my DD who is 7 and I got completely tongue-tied and confused about what I was saying - on the one hand not wanting to say anything that wasn't fact but also wanting to encourage understanding and empathy for others. It's not easy!

Except for the fact that the whole idea that you have to have a 'matching personality and body' is bollocks anyway. You can have any personality with the body you've got. There's no such thing as a girl personality and a boy personality.

Ah, well, admittedly, I would like to just punch people who say stupid things in the face (trans threads often inspire that desire). However, I am small, slender with thin bones, and don't build muscle easily. Therefore, this approach would not work for me.

One could say that my body does not match my personality. However, since the men in my family are not that muscular either, trying to change that with testosterone would be in vain.

I think it is a better approach to find different ways to react to stupid people.

IAmAmy I wish many more people, let alone teenagers, were as clear and articulate as you are

I need to sk the dcs if they ahve ever talked about that subject at school though.
I suspect neither of them would mention it, esp if it was talking about men having a vagina (Having to say the word 'vagina' woud be enough to put them off. That and knowing I would then start talking about it lol)