Assault them till they love you - in films real men don't need consent

[noblegiraffe]

A long but fascinating article about how men are groomed by the media from a young age into some very troubling views about women.

www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal/

Oh, I adored that scene too chochoc! It feels a bit like finding out Santa doesn't exist to see it as an adult.

And you're right about the romantic myth keeping us in relationships long after we should have bailed out. I had an interesting conversation with someone about kink and kink shaming in fandom - and pointed out to her that in many respects my chosen genre to write (very vanilla consensual sex) was potentially the most insidious of the lot, because I was selling women the happy ending, and the temptation to couple this to the idea that "if only I love him enough" (Beauty and the Beast) "I'll get that happy ending" is one of the most dangerous messages out there.

Future happiness meaning retroactive consent is how it's sold isn't it? It's not a problem that Belle was locked up in a castle, or that Han molested Leia, or that Edward watched Bella while she slept or whatever, because it turned out well in the end.

I was brought up on cary grant films from the 40s and 50s (at my mother's side) and this sort of stuff goes on all the time. I had a pretty warped idea of romantic love and wanted men to whisk me off my feet with a little bit of brutality on the side.
Problem is that these men don't turn out to be cary grant - they turn out to be abusive. And your sweet back and forth play acting becomes something serious and sad.
I also developed a thing for older men as these are usually the portrayals on screen. Women want to be saved by a father figure.
One very abusive boyfriend based his initial chasing of me on Frankie and Johnny. He used it to point out that I simply didn't know what I wanted and that i should relax and just go with the flow. i did and it got me into debt with bruises and no self confidence - that worked out!

Well put giraffe

This has really made me think. I have a fairly messed-up view of sex and women's sexuality. Partly, I think from never having seen a model of decent relationships as I grew up. The more I think about it, I realise how true it is that we're presented with this idea that women are not meant to enjoy and welcome sex, we're meant to be passive, submitting and being won over but never actively choosing. Sadly, this seems to be something I have internalized and it has a huge effect on my marriage. It's a very damaging message.

Thinking back to those old movies, I always remember thinking how uncomfortable the women looked when being kissed - there was a definite template, and it was rough, and their head was cranked back. I didn't ever feel like I wanted what they had in the old movies.

I watched blade runner recently and was at the kiss. In my teens and twenties I LOVED Harison Ford.

The book that springs to mind that gets it right is pride and prejudice. Elizabeth wants nothing to do with Darcy. He accepts that, clears off, wants to help her but doesn't want her to know it.

Wow, Reluctant - I'd never thought of P&P that way, but it makes so much sense (and does more to reconcile me to Darcy than anything else I've ever read - I tend to see him as a bit of an arrogant arse). You're so right, and when Lizzie does find out and they talk, he doesn't push her - he simply says "I still feel the same way, if you've changed your mind let me know, if you haven't I'll never mention it again" - and leaves it to her to make the move.

Happy feminist dance round one of the great works of Eng Lit!

How very polite of him! :o

If Mr Darcy got it, then what the hell happened in the last 200 years?

Well, not everyone got it at that time, H'e an unusual case.

Anither problem with this is that it tells young girls that their opinion, gut instict, is wrong and the man knows better what's good for them.

She doesn't want to, he insists against her will, oh it's wonderful, he was right, what a silly girl I was to think with my own head.

Awful. Even when it is not rape or force or violence. How many time in real life you have changed your mind about someone just because they kissed you or semi stalked you? I can remember plenty of nice guys wanting to go out with me - I just did not fancy them, thee would have been no point in giving in.

Fast forward 12 years and I have given in to my stbxh and the results are not as we both expected.

Getting together should always be mutual, and in films never is.

(For example I was a bit unconfortable in the last episode of cold feet - think it would have been better plot to wait till she was ready to start a relationship with whatsisname rather then him convincing her ay a party, but hey)

Yeah, and him essentially saying she was cheap as Mr Married had "bought" her with flowers and a song was hardly endearing.

Mind, Mr Married turning up to move in without asking was even worse!

Interesting, watching that episode of cold feet as a man it seems like she has all the power. My view is tainted perhaps by an ex who advised me that the trick as a girl was to let a man know subtly or by some means at leady that you liked him, then to let him do all the running. James thingys character is in this mould, and if course he has to move fast to get in before the other guy (who has been very clearly marked out as a total bell end in juxtaposition with the good guy)

She would have used the word suitor which I was a bit taken a back at.

"all the power"

Say what?

Both people have the "power" to opt in or out of a relationship

With obviously the opt in being contingent on the other person's wishes

Wouldn't it be good if we stopped perceiving dating as anything to do with "power"?

Interesting discussion. I've been wracking my brains to think of a film where the woman pursues the man and a) she isn't a bitch and b) it ends happily, and the only film I can think of is Charade with Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn. He initially rebuffs her because of the age gap. That's the only film I can think of!

Interesting, watching that episode of cold feet as a man it seems like she has all the power

That is interesting - given that the only power she has is the power to say yes or no - just like him. It's a very male centric view that she has power because she can reject - not that they both have power because they can both reject

Well - what I'm getting at is that she (as is typical) doesn't seem that bothered, he's the one that has to risk putting it all out there and possibly getting it thrown back in his face, because she won't, the woman never does. The impression is that he is more bothered than her, because despite clearly liking each other, without him making the effort, she will happily keep shagging the married guy. So I suppose that gives the impression of an imbalance as it's always the man who has to go overboard, if he didn't well - she wouldn't.

Pear

Do you honestly believe that, or is that devil's advocacy?

I hope you don't believe it, because it's bollocks.

"getting it thrown back in his face" - given they are friends and have already snogged, she's hardly likely to run around saying "uuurgh, Adam asked me out" like an immature teen. She might say a simple no, which is hardly the same thing.

"the woman never does" - Crap.

"she will happily keep shagging the married guy" - as noted above, she was cornered by the married guy who turned up to move in without asking. Hardly "happily shagging"

" if he didn't well - she wouldn't." - So what? No one is obliged to be in a serious relationship. After the death of her husband, she didn't want to be in another relationship as he was the love of her life. She only wanted no-strings-attached. That's completely up to her, and would be whatever the reasons for wanting to stay NSA.

She opened up to him about not wanting to be in a relationship and the next thing he did was push her into one "for her own good" - oh, and in his own self-interest, he was hardly encouraging her to make a go of it with Jamie or any other guy.

And she did say she'd like him to stay living across the hall - that's quite a big "out there" statement given he'd just bought a house for him and his son. He could easily and understandably have said 'no' to that (or thrown it back in her face, to use your parlance)

Things to do now, but sheesh, you have a grim view of relationships. I'm done.

Yonic

It's a bit much to say that my life thus far and familial relationships etc are "grim" because of a simple statement of fact that in the majority of portrayals (as in this one) the man is the one who does the chasing, despite the evidence that the women probably wants to be in some sort of relationship with him. Are you saying that the viewers are wrong to perceive this ?

and the next thing he did was push her into one

I rather think it's you that has the grim view of relationships. How was she pushed exactly ?

It may sound counter-intuitive, but these paradigms where a man has to "put himself out there," or perform some sort hypemasculine aggressive peacocking are precisely why men struggle to get dates.

Only a tiny tiny minority of occasions do those tactics go anywhere (and ok maybe spectacularly good looking men may a bit more mileage out of them). However the men who are less successful create this observation bias in their own heads that this is the way to be and they are not that.

The common element to both groups is this entitlement to women. Where to go from here? Well I am no Harrison Ford, and neither am I some grand Cassanovian seducer of women, but I've done alright.

Just generally be friendly, sociable and kind to everyone and have confidence in yourself. That will resonate with people you are compatible with, and the business of attracting people is one fuck of a lot less effort and hassle.

The real life skills in relationships is being able to put in the work over time. Nurturing and bringing out the best in one another and standing equally to build a life with someone and not for them. Funnily enough a lot of these fundamentals translate into good parenting skills (looking at things from other people's perspectives, being able to put other people's needs before your own when require, good and honest communication). Although the parent/child relationship starts off unequal by nature, and romantic relationships should not.

There is only one thing men can do that women can't and that is to be fathers, conversely only women can be mothers. Absolutely everything else is interchangeable and up for grabs. Particularly right now in our collective cultural storytelling fatherhood is not seen as aspirational as motherhood, and seeing that it's the only thing us men have that is truly any different, it's hardly surprising there are generations of men who couldn't find their arse with an atlas when it comes to understanding their own masculinity.