woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

[BombadierFritz]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

Thanks, BlondEbby, that's really interesting. Were you aware that the Mermaids CEO flew her child to the US at age 12 to obtain medication and then to Thailand at the age of 16 for gender reassignment surgery? Is that something people in Mermaids ever mention?

I've heard of pressure/encouragement to put your child on cross sex hormones from someone else who has been involved.

Good points, SomeDyke. I particularly like your last paragraph. It seems to met too that it's very troubling that no one is allowed to ask the real questions. Alice Dreger, the historian of medicine and science, covers problems faced by researchers in this field in her book "Galileo's Middle Finger."

She writes: "Many sex researchers told me—without wishing to be named—that trans activists... have behaved so crazily, the entire population they “represent” has been marked by researchers as being too unstable and dangerous to bother with."

Steven Pinker, Professor of Psychology, told her: "...graduate students, post-docs, and other young researchers will not touch this topic with a ten-foot pole, starving the field of new talent. Only tenured professors who have decided to change fields—a tiny number—would take it on.”

and doing what is best for the child is what we like to see

What's best for the child in almost all cases is to let them be kids. Not taking a normal stage in their life and mutilating them and making them sterile. Not to mention the adverse MH effects to this has on them.

PrawnofthePatriarchy, no I wasn't aware that the CEO had taken her child to Thailand. I'm not saying she keeps that secret, when you join Mermaids it is a bit overwhelming with all the info, so I may have forgotten! What surprised me also is how quickly the parents go about changing their child's name and gender on all things official. My child is living as a different gender to their birth gender but we are working at a slow speed and I'm taking my lead from my child. My child is happy at this gentle course. After our first Tavistock apt my child told me afterwards that they wanted to move slowly and certainly would not want to go anyway near cross sex hormones until they were absolutely sure this was what they really wanted. This is in line with the Tavistock's guidelines.
I'm all for supporting my child but the Mermaids parents seem to run before they can walk.

I'm going to echo BlondEbby somewhat here, for both the fact I was not aware the CEO had gone to such extreme measures, I had no idea she thought her child was gay at 18 months either (I think someone mentioned this earlier on) and that I am somewhat surprised how quickly child's names and gender are changed so early on/so quickly. But then I'm not in a position to know why or why other options are explored first, unless of course they have.

However, thankfully whomever I have spoken to adviced a slow pace of movement and just go with the flow. Ultimately I personally would not head in any extreme route and have infact pushed my child to find hobbies that can define them as an individual and grow their own confidence to whom they are. Yes my child dresses as a "boy", but then so do I. I think if we dissected me, I think you'd find a mass of confusion and yet I am confident in who I am, and my gender (only as I see myself as genderless really, unless choosing to insult my husband about men being able to multitask )

I don't and won't let my child become fixated on the gender issue, nor define them but think because I have other children that have special needs, I won't let their disability define them.

(only as I see myself as genderless really, unless choosing to insult my husband about men being able to multitask )

A favourite riposte to this, is that women multi-task, men prioritise.

Well I shall remain genderless then..... As I prioritise my multitasking 😂

BlondEbby...one of the things I have always been told by members within Mermaids is to go at your child's pace and focus on what they want. Many, many of the children want to go faster than us as parents and we have to say slow down a little. But often holding a young person back leads to great distress. As someone who also see all the messages it is nearly always the case that it parents broaching the subject of how to go private and then others post what they know or their own experience. As to the subject of self harm and suicide, well you only have to see the number of parents who are concerned about their children self harming or worse. I myself asked the Tavistock about this at a family day and they confirmed the much higher levels in our young people and this is very clearly documented in many areas. The research shows that young peoples with gender dysphoria are 10x more likely to self harm than the average population. This drops when supported by family and peers but can rise when the young people undergo bullying, rejection and isolation at school. So actually when this is talked about it is not scare mongering it is fact. You are very blessed if your child has never felt like this way. The only way that any of this will change is when our young people are totally accepted by the society we live in. A society that is governed by others norms. I would imagine that you have been receiving support within the Mermaids forums even though you paint a bleak picture. Yes there are parents there who are fighting for the rights and freedoms for their children but without people fighting the fight over the centuries we would not have the freedoms we now have and your child will benefit from those who carry.on that fight. I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

cool

I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

Thats not true at all. Its great that people let their kids be kids. No need to try and scare some people out of letting the truth out about Mermaids

the people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be

No, they aren't. Have you actually read any of the many threads on this subject? Because it really doesn't sound like it.

Hanora50, I'm not painting a bleak picture of Mermaids at all. I said that there are many nice people on there. I was always told to follow my child's lead. But when I brought up (at a residential) that although I supported my child, I was having difficulty 'seeing' them in the gender they now identified in, I was told that if I could afford it I should go private to get them on cross sex hormones which would then start making my child look more like their 'new' gender. A bit drastic don't you think?
And yes I am lucky my child doesn't self-harm. I have another child that chronically cut and they were cis. The Tavistock as well as a member from our local LGBTQ group both said that as long as a child is supported the incidences of self-harm and attempted suicide are not as scarily high as 'some' groups may say.

For what it's worth, self harming is not confined to gender nonconforming children or trans-children. Amongst my son's teenage peergroup there are an alarming number of girls who self harm and post selfies. All of whom are very definitely 'cis'.

It was unheard of in my day.

My child is also self harms and is suicidal, but none of us (whomever i spoke to at mermaids on numerous occasions, NSPCC, CAHMS, other health professionals etc) think it's down to being transgender but a more underlying issue that we are trying to explore.

FWIW, I've thought this thread has actually been a very interesting and sensible debate

I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

Are you talking about us, here on this thread on Mumsnet? If you are then you have not understood posters concerns. It's not about disallowing children to live and be who they want. It's about peddling the myth that a male can become a female. Nobody's denying that dysphoria exists or that there are people that don't conform to their gender. Anyone can present how they like, but it's understanding that the dissonance between someones gender and sex will always be profound in people who believe that they can become the opposite sex. There will always be the dissatisfaction that they are not a natal male/female. It's allowing and helping people, especially children who are still learning who they are, the time and space to become comfortable with themselves and their bodies without the need for invasive surgery and hormones.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

Good post.

I think because there ARE invasive alternatives out there at the click of a button, making a choice suddenly becomes a desperate decision with a deadline.

Can someone clarify about Mermaid's CEO's child?

Born a boy, she knew he was gay at 18 months. At 16 he changed to a girl? If he is now dating boys, then he's not gay now? If he's dating girls then he wasn't gay at 18 months but is now?

Anyone ???

Apparently susie green's daughter has a boyfriend. She also entered mini England. I'm not sure if she won or not.

Not mini England, Miss England. Don't let anyone say being trans is all about appearance, eh

The research shows that young peoples with gender dysphoria are 10x more likely to self harm than the average population.

Please link said research.

I would also remind you that bthe people in this group are not just putting Mermaids down but they are also against you and I as parents who allow their children to live and be who they want to be.

What threads have you been reading? Please link

I've just been reading up on Susie Greens daughter, and based upon her account, it certainly seems her daughter was very sure that she of who she was. Based upon what I have read, which really is all I can go on, it does appear that they made the right decision and it appears it was led by the child herself. I think to self mutilate your private areas at an age that gender shouldn't be noted, is highly inductive that she was aware she was "in the wrong body". Would I have allowed surgery at such a young age? I don't think I would, but not being in that situation I can't honestly put my hand on heart on say i wouldn't if it really was apparent that my child was very sure, especially before the hormones of puberty have really set in. What did concern me was more that the nursery rand Susie Green to ask if it was okay that her daughter wear a Snow White outfit. I've got several photos of my youngest dressed in several variants of fairy princesses from nursery, and yet not once did they ask my opinion or permission, nor should they have as it is very natural for a child to explore and like what they like at that moment in time. It's what playing and make believe is all about and part of childhood! I think it's very telling how Susie Greens daughter is a confident and happy person and shows this was the right decision for her individual child, in my opinion.

Now this is very very different to what I have read in that report. The report reads of emotional abuse, based on the mothers dislike of her ex partner. Whilst googling, I came across another story of a 5 year old child where the mother is adamant he want to be a she, but the father suggests differently based upon how the child is in other places other than the mothers home. Apparently in this case, the mother started dressing the child as a she from 2 1/2. Again, this is all based upon media findings so I can't be aware of the full stories, but these cases are seemingly where the child is confused but is being led by the parents decisions and therefore drastic measures of name changing, hormone blockers, surgery etc etc needs to be held off or indeed dealt with in the smallest of steps to enable the child to grow into who THEY want to be , with the right support for them to do so.

"I think to self mutilate your private areas..."
We're talking sterilization of a child here, a procedure that UK doctors advised against AFAIK, and which is illegal here, and now is in Thailand as well, for a damn good reason. After all, doctors are in many cases unwilling to sterilize perfectly healthy, sound in mind adults who know exactly what they want (i.e. no more kids!).

Just being grateful that in this case (unlike others, see gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/uks-youngest-transgender-patient-seeks-to-reverse-sex-change/ ) the right decision seems to have been made is not really enough. We have to have procedures in place that protect children not just from themselves, but from parents who think they are doing the best thing for their child as well. Although Rihanna Cooper seems to have reversed her earlier decision to go back to being a gay man...............This is hardly a glowing endorsement for the validity of transition before maturity (mental and physical).

I still think it's very odd that you can tell a boy is gay at 18 months. How exactly? His sexual preference ??!

Datun

Susie Green is quoted in the DM (sorry!) as saying:

‘As a toddler, Jackie always headed for the dolls in toy shops. Initially, I did think it was a phase but Jack, as she was then, became disruptive in class, ran away from school, loathed having her hair cut and would rip off her school uniform and put on girls’ clothes when she got home.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2235781/Jackie-Green-Transgender-beauty-queen-praises-amazing-family-ahead-BBC-documentary.html

No, I agree and am thoroughly grateful to hear that this is not an easy process and the fact that now everyone seems to be on the same page about no one younger than 18 can start the process of surgery. I think that's right. For me, all options would be explored and the most final procedure would be the very very very last road I took. I remember when I was younger wanting a hysterectomy because I never wanted children at all. Had I have done so, I wouldn't have my 4 wonderful minis around me and in hindsight would have absolutely regretted my decision. Thankfully, it's a procedure that is very hard to get done incase you change your mind, however a friend of mine did manage it and has never once regretted the decision. This is why I believe the child needs to be deemed old enough (ie at an adult age) for a very severe decision to be carried out. I was just merely suggesting that in the CEOs case, based upon what I read from the daughters own account, they seemed to have made the right choices - thankfully.

In my case, I'm lucky enough to know that my child is just hugely confused and so decisions like these certainly will not need to be explored for quite some time yet. It obviously is a worry about when a child is confused but the parent can be swept along with trying to do what they think is the right thing. That is why I would have thought there would be safeguardings in place to prevent extreme measures, and if there isn't, maybe there should be? In the report, it was clearly obvious from all the official bodies the mother spoke to, that she was the one pushing the child into a gender box. I also think, official diagnoses should be made from fully trained people, with both the parents and child being seen separately. From the report of that child, this was not the case as she refused CAHMS and ignored Tavistocks advice. They have started to do seperate assessments under the Autistic Spectrum and think that this has really given a clearer indication of the child and their needs.