Not really feminism but why is it OK...

[drspouse]

For my 4 year old to say "that man's really tall!" and indeed "that man's really black" but not "that man's really fat!".

Is it all society? Or is there a case for it being health related? Is there a good way to handle this? I thought it would be better here than on a board where people would say "how rude" and "you shouldn't mention skin colour, it's shameful". Also, I'm kind of interested in unpacking this philosophically!

My DS seems to be at this sort of stage plus he is also that sort of child - very outspoken.

We were in a cafe last week and a very very large man came in, he appeared to be with a carer and at the minimum had difficulty walking (I am not sure if the carer was also helping him with e.g. choices/communication).

DS said "That man's very fat!" and I said "yes, he is, but he probably doesn't want you shouting about it" and I proceeded to ask him not to stare, because he was. "But I'm not staring I'm just looking a lot!" (I'm not sure he knows what "stare" means to be fair).

Today on the bus he pointed out an extremely tall man ("That man's very tall!" Yes, he is, isn't he?) and a very very dark skinned man

"That man's got a black head!" Well I think he's got black legs and arms too. "I've got white legs and arms haven't I Mummy? and DD's got brown legs and arms?" Yes, that's right, you're White and DD is (ethnicity) (they are adopted and different ethnicities. We do talk about ethnicity and who is Black and who is White but this man was much darker than even the West African children in his nursery class, let alone DD or the mixed and Asian children in his Reception class). There is no way we can have skin colour as an unmentionable in our family - rather the opposite, we want to talk about it.

He hasn't asked me WHY the people in question are fat/tall/black but I suppose I could have explained (the fat man may not be very well/the tall man had a tall mummy and/or daddy/ the black man ditto).

Would this be different if someone was pathologically tall e.g. with a "syndrome"? Would we find it more awkward to mention then?

I think it's a great idea to talk to children about differences using books etc, and of course we do that. Interestingly thinking about the books that are available, there are a good deal with ethnic minority characters, mostly positive, and some, though not enough, with disabilities.

But for those with physical differences e.g. tall, small, or large - children's books generally are pretty awful! Either see people as a laughing stock or cartoon (like Humpty Dumpty) or a separate species (like giants). TV is not much better. Cartoons or the odd token character.

I'm intrigued by those who think I live in the 1950s? Is it because you think my children never see people with different coloured skin? In which case maybe just read my post a bit more carefully. Or is it because people aren't supposed to notice the colour of other people's skin? In which case I can highly recommend reading up on "colour blindness". Now that IS from the 50s. Well, maybe the 70s.

I dunno what you really need to tell kids about physical differences. I've never had convoluted conversations about people's size/shape/colour.

Is there something that needs explaining?

I would tell your four year old that everyone is different and to stop making personal remarks about people he does or doesn't know. Keep the discussions for home.

Yes it is good to talk about differences, just don't use actual people stood next to you in the supermarket as an educational tool, because they just want to buy some hobnobs, not have a random child loudly asking why they are such a shortarse etc.

As big a lesson as teaching children that we are all different is teaching children that we all have a right to go about our business without having personal comments made about us.

I was sat next to a teenager with bad acne on a train, opposite a mother and child about 4/5 openly having a conversation about his spots. The mother was oblivious to the pain she was causing this teenager who ended up moving. Teaching children about sensitivity is extremely important.

My daughter looks different to the majority of children her age, however she certainly isn't an educational prop and I wouldn't appreciate her being used as one!

It's not about shame. It's about good manners.

A polite 4 yo knows not to pass comment on other people's appearance.

I disagree that it's OK to say "that man is very tall/short/black/orange" - I was always taught not to make any personal remark like this over anyone's appearance or body shape. It's none of our business and we are not called on to comment or have an opinion.

I think that an adult/teen commenting on aspects of a stranger's appearance is unacceptable- whether this is that they are tall/short, dark/pale skinned, disabled, fat, thin or anything else. This is because even if the 'difference' is relatively neutral (ie being tall as opposed to being fat) they may be upset at strangers pointing and staring.

However, this is something that children will need to learn as it is natural for children to be curious about things that they see as unusual. I agree with pps that for younger children the key is how the adults around them respond. When my DC have done this I've responded with something inclusive and then privately followed up with a discussion about how people might not like to be pointed at.

Whilst young children do ask questions in all innocence and in my experience are very accepting of differences, I do think that it's important to teach they how to be polite if they have questions about differences. I was once out with a friend's 8 year old and she pointed at a man (who was sitting on a bench very close to us) with a disability that made his legs short and said 'Eugh- that's weird, look, that man's weird he's got weird legs, quick let's run it's making me feel ill'. I said that he was not weird he was just a man whose legs were a bit different etc but he looked very upset by this. I did think that by that age she really should have learned to be more empathetic (she did not have SEN or anything that would have limited her empathy skills).

blimey, I would have really told her off!

If it had been my DC I would have! I did mention it to her mum and she said she'd have a word but did not seem as horrified as I would have

You need to teach children that it's rude to comment on other people's appearance. I would expect a neurotypical 4 year old to have learned that already

I think the fat thing is a red herring.

Rude comments include: "That lady is pretty", "She looks like a princess", "Great legs", "She's a 10".

When my children were little I would have just quoted Alice in Wonderland: "It's rude to make personal remarks" on the very few occasions it was necessary. My 3 kids never really mentioned people's appearance.

But if every time you go out, your 'difference' is remarked upon by strangers then things are going to get very wearing for you.

Rather than this talking about difference leading to a more inclusive society, I suspect that some people who have a 'difference' just avoid going out in the first place because they don't have the energy to get into a conversation with complete strangers every single time their kid wants to make a remark. Or doesn't want to listen to a parent next to them explaining why you are in a wheelchair.

You have to consider that the stranger probably does not want to be commented on in public. And does not want to explain their difference in public to a stranger.

How would you react if the stranger answered your child's question and then made a remark about your children's physical appearance. "Gosh, that can't be your sister. She's a different colour".

And how would you feel if that happened a lot? Surely there are times when you just want to go about your business without wanting to explain anything to strangers?

It is rude to point out people's differences. Also it is not good conversation to Make Pronouncements of Fact like 'that man is fat'. I do believe children need to learn that such statements are vocalisations of thoughts, not pleasant conversation, and therefore aren't deserving of much reply.

Conversation consists of asking questions or talking about your own feelings. Not going around saying 'green car! Tall man! Shop!' That's what you expect from a toddler practising words not a 4 year old.

I once house shared with a girl who did this. I would come downstairs and she would say 'you're wearing glasses!' My boyfriend came to visit, left the room and she turned to me and said 'he's black!'. It's just a really fucking wierd way of making conversation and requires the other person to do the leg work (well yes, sometimes I wear glasses, the normal thing would be to say oh I didn't know you wear glasses have you got eye strain? You feeling ok? Not just oh look! Different).

her 'he's black!'
you 'oh my god, is he? are you sure?'

I discourage my children from making personal comments about people. It's not necessary and often loaded/judgmental. Why does anyone need to comment on what someone else looks like? Although for some it seems to pass for conversation.

I wouldn't be happy if my 3 year old spoke like that in public. I happen to be black in a predominantly white area and I can honestly say it isn't always nice being a learning tool. My 7yr old gets the same at school sometimes, he doesn't like it and I don't like it.

I agree with batteries. It's not great to teach children that stating the 'difference' in someones appearance is the right way to be.

Ha Shalli I just looked at her and said 'yes?' she laughed and said oh sorry don't know why I said that. She was a nurse from London, genuinely not a racist (or glasses-ist for that matter) she just appeared to have never been taught that statements of fact are unnecessary and rarely add to conversation. In fact she seemed to think she could make a statement of fact and a whole conversation would be sparked by people indulging her. Self absorbed I guess.