Not really feminism but why is it OK...

[drspouse]

For my 4 year old to say "that man's really tall!" and indeed "that man's really black" but not "that man's really fat!".

Is it all society? Or is there a case for it being health related? Is there a good way to handle this? I thought it would be better here than on a board where people would say "how rude" and "you shouldn't mention skin colour, it's shameful". Also, I'm kind of interested in unpacking this philosophically!

My DS seems to be at this sort of stage plus he is also that sort of child - very outspoken.

We were in a cafe last week and a very very large man came in, he appeared to be with a carer and at the minimum had difficulty walking (I am not sure if the carer was also helping him with e.g. choices/communication).

DS said "That man's very fat!" and I said "yes, he is, but he probably doesn't want you shouting about it" and I proceeded to ask him not to stare, because he was. "But I'm not staring I'm just looking a lot!" (I'm not sure he knows what "stare" means to be fair).

Today on the bus he pointed out an extremely tall man ("That man's very tall!" Yes, he is, isn't he?) and a very very dark skinned man

"That man's got a black head!" Well I think he's got black legs and arms too. "I've got white legs and arms haven't I Mummy? and DD's got brown legs and arms?" Yes, that's right, you're White and DD is (ethnicity) (they are adopted and different ethnicities. We do talk about ethnicity and who is Black and who is White but this man was much darker than even the West African children in his nursery class, let alone DD or the mixed and Asian children in his Reception class). There is no way we can have skin colour as an unmentionable in our family - rather the opposite, we want to talk about it.

He hasn't asked me WHY the people in question are fat/tall/black but I suppose I could have explained (the fat man may not be very well/the tall man had a tall mummy and/or daddy/ the black man ditto).

Would this be different if someone was pathologically tall e.g. with a "syndrome"? Would we find it more awkward to mention then?

Lass if a child saw someone who looked physically different - in a wheelchair, limb difference - how would you treat the situation? Tell them "we don't talk about that, so be quiet"? Or say "yes, I think they have problems walking, that's why they are in that chair"? And not say it in a hushed voice indicating shame - but in a voice that is loud enough so if the person in question felt like chipping in they could.

The best thing I've seen was a custom sling made for a mum/baby where the baby was in a complicated support (can't quite remember what for). It said "It's OK to ask questions, it's not OK to stare". And I am making it very clear to him that it's not OK to stare (it's not even OK to stare when someone has decorated themselves to look different e.g. tattoos or blue hair!)

He will have had no idea at all that the very large man was with a carer, nobody goes around wearing a badge saying "I am this man's carer", it was only the way she was acting that gave me a clue. I could have been wrong too, she could have been a family member who was just extra solicitous of the man's needs.

(As it happens, DD's godfather has limb difference, so that's not really new. Some people are like that shrug, he might say "oh look that man's hands are like S").

And what SomeDyke says. Our responses need to show that there is nothing shameful about being any of those things whilst at the same time conveying that commenting on them in public.

It's a conundrum alright!

Sorry.. that commenting in public isn't the best thing!

I think you can say 'it isn't polite to comment' certainly yes.

I would also apologise promptly.

I don't think it's ok really. I've had children come and ask me what is wrong with my daughter who has a disability (to be fair I have also had adults do this) or I have had loud parents give an explanation so we can hear
I'd rather you explained to your children open mindedness from an early age, all people are different, out of my earshot when I am buying sea bass.

I don't want to sound bad tempered as I'm not really, I'm very patient but there is a time and a place and approaching people in sainsburys when they are just going about their business does get a bit wearing.
Of course we are polite and explain but I'd rather we could just be left alone and I feel TERRIBLE posting that as the flip side to that scenario is much much worse, when it's abusive
Again. We just want to be left alone!

I'm sure you aren't a horrible person and I'm sure you have posted with the best intentions, so don't take what I have said as a personal slight to you.

I think by 4 a child should know not to make personal remarks. 2 is different, but by 4 manners should have kicked in.

The person who looks different may not want to b a learning opportunity.

I disagree that a hushed voice indicated shame.

It is not considered polite in our society to openly pass comment on anyone within their hearing. The hushed voices acknowledged that the conversation is societally inappropriate but deals with the child's age appropriate lack of impulse control.

I do think that aged four is old enough to understand that you don't past comment on people's appearance or behaviour in public and that it is more polite to wait until later to raise any questions.

Pressed post too soon.

I have scar visible in certain clothing. If children ask me directly about it that's fine, I'm happy to explain it. I would rather however not sit and listen to a parent and child discuss it in front of me.

"If children ask me directly about it that's fine, I'm happy to explain it. I would rather however not sit and listen to a parent and child discuss it in front of me."
I think we have a series of things here. Interrupting someone else and asking them stuff, that is a major imposition. Having a major discussion knowing that the person concerned can hear it and pretending they can't is also an imposition. A few words, that is a different matter. I'd find trying to not be overheard and whispering is actually more noticable than a few words in an ordinary voice. And we're talking about small kids here, who after all (and I think this matters a lot to me!) are usually asking in all innocence, and what answer they get will matter a lot as to how they feel about whatever it is in the future. They can't necessarily distinguish between the don't comment cos it's rude and the don't comment cos you've asked about something shameful (and the latter is often disguised as the former in my experience!). Perhaps that is just my childhood experiences and the things I was made to feel were shameful....................

Aren't we just enabling the shame if we continue to hush innocent questions and comments though? I do often think that this stuff gets out of hand. Like the fat thing. I'm fat. Being judgemental or assuming that it is shameful and Must Not Be Mentioned is part of the problem. It's just fat. Some people are fat. Some people are thin. By treating it as something to be whispered about or not mentioned at all is contributing to fat shaming. I'm not talking about pointing and laughing. It IS weird that it considered rude and beyond the pale to neutrally state a fact.
Likewise, the disability thing gets my goat. Dd2 is physically disabled and used to use a wc a lot. She also had issues with her eyes (which was apparently loads more noticeable than the wc lol). We had no end of kids ask questions. I just answered them. Or said 'hey dd2' and let her answer herself. The kids who asked and had their questions answered were absolutely fine and had no problem playing with her, walking alongside chatting, or asking her if they could have a go on her equipment. The ones whose mothers hushed them, whisked them away, and gave them a good lecture about how rude it was to ask about disability were the ones who didn't interact with her, stared at her from the other side of the playground, and treated her as though she was contagious. There was SomethingBad going on that they weren't allowed to mention or interact with. It's a really good way to ensure your kid avoids people with disabilities. That is counter-productive.
Disability is not shameful. Skin colour is not shameful. Weight is not shameful.
I do get that we aren't living in a utopia and that these things are value-laden, but I can't help but think we are reinforcing it by playing along with the Unmentionable categories. It's a very fine line.

This is when it is really useful to be fat. When my dc made these sorts of comments, my response was usually along the lines of "Yes, he is. People come in all sorts of shapes/sizes/colours, just like I'm fat and Daddy is slender, and you have brown hair and your sister has red hair." Mostly that satisfied them.

Once they got to the "But why...?" stage, I would simply say "It's rude to discuss people's appearance in front of them. We'll talk about this when we get home."

Occasionally you can see that the person under discussion is open to being questioned, in which case I would say to my dc "I don't know. I'm not them. Why don't you ask them?" Once my dc asked a man "Why are you in a wheelchair?" He gave them a big grin and replied "Because I have no legs" while whisking the rug off his lap. "Bye!" and wheeled himself cheerfully away.

I never said disability was shameful, we would just like to go out and not be looked at or asked questions. Other people manage to do it, can't see how I'm being precious.
I have had an hour's sleep in thirty odd hours though, so I am most probably being really, really a bit unreasonable :o

The problem is that people are often good natured but it doesn't mean they actually appreciate being used as an educational tool.

The person who looks different may not want to b a learning opportunity.

Yes, and actually, I'm quite surprised that people aren't getting this. Tall person on the bus doesn't want to hear that conversation on why he's so tall. Leave them out of it for goodness sake!

There is a massive difference between inculcating shame and chatting about some random people's physical features - tall/black/fat/whatever in front of them.

I wasn't suggesting that any posters here were saying that x characteristic is shameful. Just wondering whether we are contributing to that overall paradigm by teaching children that they should be ashamed for mentioning ordinary physical characteristics. No conversation is required - just an acknowledgement that yes, indeed, I am very much larger than average - we are all different sizes. Or yes, he is very black - we are all different colours. Or yes, some people are amputees/ blind/ bald/ freckly/ ginger/ wear different clothes. Kids need to know that all of those things are perfectly ordinary, and not shameful. Sure you can teach them that across the board it is rude to talk about other people when they are present - but treating such ordinary things as certain physical characteristics as a hushed category is reinforcing that those categories are somehow Other.

Tell them it's rude to talk about other people when they are present, if you must shut down conversation, not that it's rude to mention someone's ability/ skin colour/ weight.

There is a difference.

The child has no need to feel ashamed. They just need to learn that its not polite. They risk becoming those awful kind of adults who go on about these things.

I knew I was right to post here - my initial instinct was to do so because it was a discussion about how to talk about difference and appearance. But the standard of debate is really refreshing and thought provoking.
I am pretty averse to hushed tones, I think, because there is a tendency to say that children are "you know, adopted" in such tones.

Adoption is not something to be ashamed of but nor is it something the individual might be happy with having bellowed across.

What on earth has shame got to do with it?

I do think that aged four is old enough to understand that you don't past comment on people's appearance or behaviour in public and that it is more polite to wait until later to raise any questions

Exactly-

OP you seem to view anyone who doesn't look like you and your child as a public learning activity.

I agree that children need to be taught (and some adults too, actually!) that it is impolite to make comments or ask questions about people in front of them.

I have always taught my dcs this.

We had a little boy asking his mum 'why is that boy in a 'baby buggy' he looks like a baby' (ds is 6 but uses a sn buggy, has very babyish features and is very short) , and his mum said, 'why don't you ask him sweet heart', I know she was trying to do the right thing but my 6 year old non verbal son doesn't want to be compared to a baby, is unable to tell this boy anything and shouldn't have to , and I shouldn't have to try to explain genetic differences in front of ds when we are just trying to pick up a prescription.

As pp have said, people shouldn't be seen as a learning opportunity.

Agree it's not about hushed tones and shame, you can use responses like SomeDykes whilst also teaching (beforehand, afterwards and generally in life) that there are certain types of comments and questions that you save for later.

Obviously small children don't get it over night, but not a reason not to try. I would not be wanting random strangers discussing random aspects of my appearance in front of me or in earshot, not matter how innocuous the comment!

I would be wondering why my 4 year old would think such things.

Seriously, you must live in an isolated bubble. Do you go out often as a family? Do you not have access to social media and tv?

DrSpouse have you just been transported from the 1950s? Are you part of a religious sect?

My autistic son once said aloud at collection time in Primary, 'Mum, she is a very small mother!'. I was mortified. I took him home and explained to him that saying such things out loud was not acceptable but if he did want to discuss things he found strange, then to speak to me in the comfort of the car going home. Or whisper into my ear. He now understands. He has never whispered into my ear though!

No way was I ever going to the mum to have a discussion about it! Besides I knew her and she thankfully took it in good grace. (Not sure I would have).

I am tall. I don't want random strangers talking about it. Not because there is anything wrong with being tall, but more because I really don't want random strangers having audible conversations about me. It's rude and breaking basic social rules.

A four year old is old enough to be taught that.

You can always discuss me later, in your own home, where I won't know about it.