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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wearing a hijab in Iran

150 replies

CanadianJohn · 30/09/2016 07:11

Top women chess players are threatening to boycott the world championship in Iran because they will be forced to wear hijabs.

Female Grandmasters will risk arrest if they do not cover up to compete in the strict Middle Eastern country due to host the knock-out tournament next year.

There is a variety of opinion:

  • when in Rome, do as the Romans do
  • if you don't like it, don't go
  • complain to the governing body (FIDE)

I'm wondering what posters on this board think.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3814137/World-chess-uproar-women-told-play-year-s-world-championships-Iran-wearing-hijabs.html#ixzz4LiUB7wzz

OP posts:
TotallyOuting · 30/09/2016 23:18

Sorry Totally that means nothing to me. Maybe you could paraphrase it? As an aside, was Williams a white, western male by any chance?

Williams' objection to relativism is that the argument essentially boils down to 1) 'Right' means 'right for a given society'; 2) It means 'right' in a functionalist sense; and 3) It is therefore wrong to criticise the values of another society.
He argues that 1) is a relative claim that does not at all permit 3), a clearly non-relative claim. He also takes issue with the circular logic bound up in arguing that interfering with a society's values is damaging to a society, because a society is generally defined by its values - and if it is, then of course a society ceases to exist if you change those values. Do we lament the loss of American society since the abolition of slavery? The right to keep slaves was a pretty fundamental value they had.

Simon Blackburn also argues quite convincingly that a society's values are the values as dictated by those in power at the top. When interfering with another society we are often attempting to help emancipate the oppressed (e.g. women in a society that heavily discriminates against them, hello Iran), who absolutely do not share the society's so-called values. How can we justify protecting the oppressive values of a small subset of a society by defining them as the entire society's values, when they are often far from it, and actively oppress huge numbers of people that are equally part of that society (however marginalised they may be)?

BartholinsSister · 01/10/2016 00:33

Why on earth are women segregated from playing chess with men anyway?

CanadianJohn · 01/10/2016 03:14

BartholinsSister "Why on earth are women segregated from playing chess with men anyway?"

The World Championship is open to both males and females. However, there are only two females in the top 300 players in the world, so the World Championship is all males, in practice.

Incidently one reason the women's event is in Iran is because no other country was interested in hosting it.

On the chess websites, some interesting suggestions have been made: could visiting women dress in Halloween costumes - giraffe, clown, spaceman, Hells Angel - making sure their hair is covered, of course.

OP posts:
HairyLittlePoet · 01/10/2016 08:52

So I thought I'd have a little look at WHY there are so fewer women than men, and I immediately came across this beautiful explanation which accounts, mathematically, for the discrepancy.
And if ever there was stronger evidence for the fact that we need to encourage girls into male dominated disciplines in massive numbers to utterly dispel these pervasive myths that mens and women's brains are just wired differently, here it is.

If as many girls learned chess as boys, if they had the same opportunity and the same encouragement and the same lifelong support, then you would see no differences at top level between men and women.

The principle is sound and would surely apply to STEM too.

Men and women do not have different brains. Women's brains just happen to be housed inside the heads of the people who are systematically excluded from societies prized achievements.

It's a numbers game.

AnyTheWiser · 01/10/2016 10:30

As the parent of a girl chess player, I would say that yes- numbers play a huge part. When she goes to competitions, there may be three groups in the boys' age sections, whereas the girls are often struggling to get even a whole group in each age, and usually put two (or even 4) age categories together.

She's in upper KS2, an age where there are vast differences socially between boys and girls, and in mixed matches, she is always intimidated and outright bullied by boy opponents. You see it standing in the halls- the girls will greet one another, shake hands, sit down quietly, chat before the game starts about where they go to school, or whether they were in that championship last year, etc, etc. The boys often very grudgingly shake hands, their body language is very negative and they take an aggressive stance. In team matches, teams entirely of boys behave as a pack, sometimes all kicking the chairs under the table throughout a match, cutting off any approaches verbally etc.
She has had far too many boys "flip the board" when they're beaten by a softly-spoken, polite little girl, and they storm off, complaining of cheating, outraged, etc. In short, boys do not want girls in their sphere, and they will do whatever it takes to keep them out.
I guess as girls get older, the desire to have a nice time playing their hobby overtakes the desire of the win, and more and more drop out. Often at competitions, there will be only 1 girl entrant in each age category (which DD likes, as they automatically get the shield/money, etc.).

AnyTheWiser · 01/10/2016 10:33

TLDR: In short, the world of chess in incredibly sexist, utterly brutal, and males reject/resent females that dare to think they have what it takes, rather than being submissive.

Shiningexample · 01/10/2016 11:04

The blokes strenuously keep the women out whilst simultaneously claiming that the reason for the dearth of female players lies with their inherent lack of ability

Shiningexample · 01/10/2016 11:05

Nice work guys😕

Shiningexample · 01/10/2016 11:10

They want to use it to prove and demonstrate their masculinity, if women take part then it is no longer a masculine activity, very probably if many more women did take part men would no longer see it as having any worth or status

Same applies to other male dominated areas

HairyLittlePoet · 01/10/2016 11:17

My first thought was "why on earth does chess need segregation by sex?
And then, by engaging brain for a minute and thinking about the completely unequal environment that boys and girls experience it becomes completely obvious that the odds are so stacked against the tiny minority of girls in a hostile majority of boys that you realise this can ONLY be overcome by giving girls a chance to experience what the boys do on the same terms. And that means allowing them to learn in an environment where they are not bullied, ostracised, diminished, othered, and subjected to the psychological effects of being perpetually seen as inferior.
Let's face it, the rest of their life experiences are already giving them those messages too.
That kind of supportive environment which builds self-belief can never happen unless you give them a chance to strengthen their skills in a female environment. Perhaps once numbers reach a critical mass the imbalance will have been addressed and the need will diminish.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 01/10/2016 17:33

This is making me want to start a women's only chess club, get really good, and beat the men. I bet it's like ballet or something where you have to start young though...

Watching this thread with interest as the political debatey types I know are all male and thus go strangely silent when it comes to sexism. (Fgs they are the type to argue that black people can never be racist whilst simultaneously calling a women sexist when she is describing female oppression. Pick your stance, men!)

Janey50 · 01/10/2016 19:02

One thing struck me when I read the OP on this thread. I was surprised that women are actually permitted to take take part in these chess championships in Iran! Iran is not exactly renowned for their equal treatment of women,and I thought that they would use it as another opportunity to oppress them.

Janey50 · 01/10/2016 19:09

And why is it that Islamic countries have laws about what non-Muslim women must wear,whereas in non-Islamic countries,there are no laws dictating what Muslim women must wear?

AnyTheWiser · 01/10/2016 21:55

Well, I believe France has restricted what muslim women may wear...

WinchesterWoman · 02/10/2016 01:55

Have they mentioned Muslim women in the legislation Wiser? I really don't think they have.

ISaySteadyOn · 02/10/2016 07:22

Was thinking about this and was wondering if they could wear wigs like some orthodox Jewish women do. That way, their own head is technically covered, but maybe it would be following the letter of the law while protesting the spirit? Or does it say all hair must be covered including wigs?

Helmetbymidnight · 02/10/2016 07:23

The Burkini 'ban' on some French beaches is receiving outcry and ridicule and dissent from all over the world - as it should.
The Iranian rule that women must cover their heads? Not so much.

AnyTheWiser · 02/10/2016 08:10

Helmet- sorry, I wasn't referring to bikini ban issue, as it's not a national legislation. I was referring to the banning of headscarves which I thought was in place in French public life?

Helmetbymidnight · 02/10/2016 08:41

It's a full veil ban isn't it? Not just headscarves.

I'm against measures forcing women to wear certain things in general - however, if anyone is genuinely trying to pretend France and Iran are equivalent on women's issues and human rights issues, then frankly, they're nuts.

JacquettaWoodville · 02/10/2016 09:00

Don't think France has any legislation about women in rooms with unrelated men, does it? Or cycling?

HermioneWeasley · 02/10/2016 09:24

I will miss fluffy when she leaves us to join the human rights utopia that is Iran.

I'm sure Iran is a beautiful country with amazing history and lovely people - most middle eastern countries are. Unfortunately I won't set foot there while it's a misogynst Islamist state.

WinchesterWoman · 02/10/2016 09:24

Don't think France has any has any legislation about Muslim women at all. It has a ban on face-covering.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 02/10/2016 18:07

ISaySteadyOn Perhaps they could weave their hair into a kind of fabric and make a head covering from that?

[sorry not helpful but I'd be tempted...]

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/10/2016 22:26

I'm coming late to this, but from my reading FIDE, the chess governing body, which arranged this event, has a mission statement which declares its commitment to sexual and racial equality. One of the competitors, an American woman, I think, said she was challenging FIDE's decision on the basis that it was going against its own declared values.

Apparently top chess players have coaches they are allowed to consult. As the women competitors aren't allowed to be alone with a man who's not a relative this is going to create major headaches as the women all/both have male coaches. Not entirely sure of my facts as read this a couple of days ago and can't lay my metaphorical hands on it.

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