'Attractive'/'feminine' women treated differently in everyday social interactions?

[TwoLittleChickens]

Just something that happened a few weeks ago which has stuck in my mind and I wanted to share it somewhere.

I was with a friend, we're both in our late 20s, and we went to buy ice cream and coffee from a kiosk. The young man who served me was friendly and helpful. He said things like "What can I get for you love?" and "would you like chocolate on that my love?". Then it was my friends turn to order. She is overweight and I suppose I would describe her as having a less typically 'feminine' face, and it was as if he completely changed personality. It was just something plain like "Can I take your order?" Maybe I am projecting and it was nothing to do with attractiveness but it's stuck in my mind, I am not sure if my friend even noticed it to be honest but if I was her I might have felt a little bit insulted.

After this I have been noticing a lot more often when I get served in shops or cafes that men talk to me in this way. Although I'm a feminist I do not mind being called "love" and "sweetie" in these contexts, but I obviously wouldn't want to be spoken to this way at work. I always saw it as just a gendered version of saying "Alright mate what can I get for you?".

(Not sure if this is relevant but I feel like adding that I'm not claiming to be an especially attractive woman - but being slim, young, with average looks and conventional clothing, I suppose I do fit in with western beauty ideals to some extent)

We all know that many opportunities do depend on looking a certain way or fitting in with beauty ideals - especially careers such as acting or modelling. And I've heard people saying "pretty" women get special treatment/freebies/favours more easily, but this is something I have not noticed in real life - only minor things like the one I described above. I guess what I'm really asking is if you have ever noticed differences like this in real life?

I'm unattractive, my friends range from average to very attractive. The sliding scale in which they are treated by service staff is almost an exact sliding scale depending on their attractiveness. I've seen it up close and from afar for about 15 years. I would actually say the service I receive as an unattractive woman ranges from neutral to downright dismissive or rude.

yes absolutely this happens.

You see it as you age.

If I go around with my gorgeous daughter... oh, how it reminds me of what I'd forgotten! The smiles! The extra pleasantries! the general sense of wafting through the world as a highly acceptable person!

I hadn't realised the slow inexorable decline of that attention and ease of passage, as the years have passed.

There are benefits of being older and less visible - I just don't give a shit anymore!

Lass, I'm an in-house lawyer. My (male, non-lawyer) manager was asked only last week if "the lady lawyer" would give some advice about something. It happens!

I'm a lawyer in the US, and while I have certainly encountered discrimination and sexism in my 35-plus-year career, I haven't heard "lady lawyer" since about the early 90s.

Yep. Not just attractiveness but size, race, age, clothing......I dont fit western beauty ideals, I've always "seen" this different treatment and sort of expect it. In some cases it's really obvious, like in a bar, try ordering a pint in a pub as a 30something overweight Asian woman whilst standing next to your white, slim, younger looking DP
I'm surprised you've just noticed this OP.

"Attractive females may even be more likely stuck in customer-facing front of house type jobs with less chance of progression...."

In my mid 20s I was called back for a second interview for a front desk job at a homeless shelter. As soon as the Latino man on the Board met me he shook his head and I knew I wasn't getting the job. The interviewer explained to me that they'd had problems with male clients getting overly-attached to front desk staff.

It happens all the time. When I was young I was conventionally pretty and got treated really well by most men without deserving special treatment. Now I'm old and overweight and totally invisible. Except when I wear something that reveals cleavage. Then it's back to the smiles and going out of their way to help me. I find it quite amusing. Pretty sure it's an unconscious reaction. And women do it too. In my experience, women are much nicer to you in shops and cafes if you are slim and made up than if you're portly in glasses and mum jeans.

I'm just now beginning to realise how much discrimination there is in those every day interactions, as I am suddenly looking my age. (And I thought that people were genuinely interested to talk to me, not just consider what it might be like to get in my pants )

I'm just now beginning to realise how much discrimination there is in those every day interactions, as I am suddenly looking my age

I know personal experience counts for nothing on FWR unless it validates the given that women are treated badly but my own experience is, that if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old.

As I've grown older and lost my looks I no longer get served as quickly in shops and get treated more dismissively in retail.

I feel happy that I don't get street harassed anymore but sad that in the past people were only being nice to me because of my looks. I was under the impression that everyone was just nice to everyone because.

I'm often envious of the way men are treated more politely both by men and women, all that hand-shaking, "sir" and "mate"-ing. I wouldn't mind some of that!

"I know personal experience counts for nothing on FWR unless it validates the given that women are treated badly but my own experience is, that if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old."

But doesn't that kind of contradict what you said? You've admitted that as a pretty 20 year woman doesn't get taken seriously. Isn't that the point? That they should be? I don't look at good looking young men and think they are incompetent or trivial. But when it comes to young women there is a certain paternalistic benevolent sexism that stops them from being seen for who they are as individuals.

One thing I've noticed is that it depends very much how you present yourself. I genuinely think that apart from a couple of percent of people who are genuinely beautiful, the rest of us, it's a case of "scrubbing up well". In my early 30s I went through phases of "performing femininity" and phases of "can't be arsed" (often running in parallel, so I'd shift from one day to another). I realised two things - (1) for most people, looking good is largely a smoke-and-mirrors type illusion; anyone can look good (in a socially acceptable sense) if they dress nicely, get a hair cut that suits them, adhere to socially accepted standards of grooming and (2) whether you play the game makes a massive difference to how you are treated by others.

I'm in my 50s Lass, and quite senior. I find professionally it doesn't matter - I am taken seriously because of what I have to say. But outside in the big bad world I have undoubtedly donned the menopausal cloak of invisibility. Getting served at a bar in front of a man of pretty much any age or an attractive younger woman? Forget it.

Ah, yes, the served at the bar test, Matilda!

I'm far more likely to stand my ground with a firm "Excuse me, I was here before you" than in my youth - but then I need it more than I did when men were happy to let me go first and the bartender would overlook other people who had probably been there longer to serve me (in my defence, if I knew other people should have been served first, I would usually say so)

I'm not sure. I'm in my fourties, no longer wolf whistled, but haven't quite got the invisibility cloak yet. I get treated really well when coming from work in a suit or a dress and carrying briefcase. I get treated with more indifference when wearing chinos and t shirt, carrying a shopping bag. That is true even for the school run parents and teachers, more of them great me enthusiastically and stop for a chat. These are people who, whilst not friends, know who I am and what I do, independent of my outfit. Same goes for shops, taxis and GP receptionists. It is weird. I wonder if I do it myself... I hope not.

I definitely don't get served as quickly at the bar as in my early 20s.

The French House in Soho - age blind bar staff. Love em.

Bit surprised by this eureka moment.. thought every one knew this was how things worked? Including service staff where you use your youth and looks to get more tips .... and helps with getting hired too... erotic capital. Reverse side is how you get treated for not "making an effort", not playing the game ... to make up for not being naturally pretty, slim ... no wonder teenage girls struggle emotionally.

if anything, being a somewhat formidable middle aged is resulting in my having to put up with less nonsense and being taken more seriously than when I was a very pretty 20 year old.

I seem to have gradually morphed from not being taken seriously to being slightly intimidating, since the age of 30 or so.

Also I noticed that, for the first time yesterday, a young adult man was reacting to DD1 (11) in a more grown up way as he was serving us in a café, sort of mildly flirting and being all chatty and in a different way adults sometimes do with children. Nothing horrible, but my spidey senses were just noticing something different all of a sudden.

I think it has a lot to do with weight. I've lost and gained 3+ stone a couple of times since I was 18. There seems to be a lower-weight point at which men start noticing me and flirting. I'm not very comfortable with it and I think teenage me possibly hid behind the weight on purpose. Women seem friendlier too, but maybe not if really dressed up and made up and slim.

When I have a Dr appointment or similar I take care to 'perform femininity' to some extent (in a muted way) because I feel people take you more seriously or maybe respect you more. Which is sad really.

On assuming sex by title - I think I used to do this, but over the years have trained myself not to assume and now I genuinely don't.

As a GP, I often hear patients (usually the old ladies) ask to see "the nice lady doctor". no offence taken in this case as they usually want to see me about something Gynae related.

Yes, having a youthful appearance is a double edged sword. I have people at work making silly comments like "I'm old enough to be your mum" or "oh we did a project like this about 15 years ago- I suppose that's before you were born!" ... I'm 26, not 14! I'm a qualified professional. I know these comments mean no harm but they don't make me too happy either.

I am actually looking forward to getting a few grey hairs to be honest, hoping to be taken more seriously at work. I don't find my husband has this issue as he looks so much older with his stubble, and despite starting with the same company in the same year as me, in a similar role, with the same salary, he has now had a couple of promotions and is on twice my salary.

I am actually looking forward to getting a few grey hairs to be honest, hoping to be taken more seriously at work. I don't find my husband has this issue as he looks so much older with his stubble, and despite starting with the same company in the same year as me, in a similar role, with the same salary, he has now had a couple of promotions and is on twice my salary

And you think the reason for this is that you look young ? That sounds quite unusual , very few jobs have " having grey hair " as a genuine occupation requirement . Why don't you just get grey highlights?

But doesn't that kind of contradict what you said? You've admitted that as a pretty 20 year woman doesn't get taken seriously

No that is not what I said. There might have been a few incidents when I was ypung but on the whole not being taken seriously has not been a problem.

I do agree that how you present does come into it. I've always been confident.

I'm always quite formally dressed , even when not at work, it's simply more comfortable and natural for me. Someone mentioned being treated with indifference when wearing chinos and tshirts- I expect that is correct but if I had to describe what I look like then I'm far closer to Anna Wintour than middle aged mum in chinos.