Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

cisgender
sɪsˈdʒɛndə/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity conforms with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex; not transgender.

just woman
woman

thats all we need

"Cisgender... Denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity conforms with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex"

I guess you don't realize why this term is offensive to many of us.

I am a woman because I'm an adult human female. My self-identity has many facets, mostly related to cultural heritage, past achievements, values, storms weathered etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender expectations society has burdened me with, and which I have largely ignored.

It is shockingly offensive to assume that "not transwoman" is the same thing as "woman who likes dressing up & making herself pretty, non-confrontational, intellectually inferior to men, not good at math etc". That is gender.

My self-identity does not "conform with the gender that corresponds to" my sex. Gender has nada to do with my self-identity. I am female so was a girl. I am now adult so I am a woman. None of this has to do with gender.

Be transgender, put on a dress & make up, call yourself a "mum" if you feel that is necessary to your happiness. I honestly couldn't care less.

However, I sincerely recommend that you don't pretend to know what women go through growing up (because you had female friends and heard of their lives ), and certainly don't tell us that our self-identity must confirm with the gender bullshit we suffer every day because we are not trans.

So now the Oxford English Dictionary isn't a reliable source, but reddit is.

I can see why some people get angry.

I did politely ask you to stop using MTT. But apparently a made-up acronym has basis in fact but a word defined in the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't. Hopefully you can understand my confusion and/or frustration.

Cisgender has two definitions - I'm using the second one to avoid doubt, and I've mostly used the term 'not trans' which hasn't caused a single issue.

But please let's continue going round in circles on this issue and let's not move on to discussing how we can improve sex education in this country (for example).

Being sexualised for my trans status is a massive turn off.

For those with a 'kink', being sexualised for my female status is the same.

Can you conceive of ANY way to prevent it other than sex segregation?

I'm not here to discuss sex education. I'm here to discuss self-identification. I know it's helpful to the trans cause to move away from the consequences of self-identification, but that's the thread.

We're going round in circles because of a line in the sand. A man is not a woman, nor can he become a women. You cannot accept that. You keep trying to persuade us that a man can become a woman, or be a woman inside (or something) but feminists cannot accept that.

So stop lecturing us all the time.

I know. It's like wading through custard.

The OED also has definitions of the word "soul" and "god" and "transubstantiation" - doesn't mean that everyone has to believe that there is a reality out there which corresponds to those words.

Part of the problem is that the word "gender" has at least three meanings: as a word for biological sex used by those who are a bit coy; as a word in social sciences meaning "socially sanctioned sex role"; and as a word used within the trans community to mean "internal feeling of matching or failing to match your biological sex."

Gender critical feminists use gender primarily to mean "socially sanctioned sex role", and usually analyse these as being detrimental to women.

Gender critical feminists tend to be agnostic or atheist about "internal sense of gender identity", just as a religious agnostic or atheist would be agnostic or atheist about the idea of "immortal souls".

When you say "cis is simply internal gender lining up with biological sex" we gloss this as "well, I don't experience anything that constitutes 'internal gender' in the sense of 'feminine soul' or 'feminine essence', so the only thing this could mean to me, personally, would be the claim that I am content with gender in the sense that I have always understood gender, namely as 'socially sanctioned set of behaviours and roles appropriate to my biological sex', but that's what I have spent my whole life being oppressed by and being deeply unhappy about having forced upon me, so of course they don't bloody line up, and the suggestion that I should be happy and accept they line up is just yet another attempt to force me back into the misogynistic box of gender." That's why we don't like being called cis.

Incidentally I can see why you don't like MTT for the same reason - as an Irish friend of mine said at the height of the troubles, "there is no neutral language - as soon as you have made the choice to call a certain city in the north 'Derry' or 'Londonderry', you have made a political choice. The problem with trans issues is looking for a compromise when there is no space for one. Either self-identified transgender people are women or men as they say, and should have access to any previously sex-segregated space or activity, with no grounds for opposition other than bigotry, or they are not. There is no magic fuzzy space in the middle. (Just as with abortion - either it is murder and you frame laws accordingly, or it is not murder and you frame laws accordingly - there is no legal solution which will favour some fuzzy middle ground and respect both women's rights to bodily autonomy and the religious beliefs of anti-abortionists at one and the same time).

"Being sexualised for my trans status is a massive turn off.
For those with a 'kink', being sexualised for my female status is the same.
Can you conceive of ANY way to prevent it other than sex segregation?"

So lesbians don't exist?

The one underpinning rule in the kink world is consent of everyone involved. And I mean everyone. It's the one underpinning facet that is totally lacking in sexual education in this country or in general.

When we have groups of frat boys chanting 'no means yes and yes means anal' you can see society as a whole has failed. Failed to educate it's children in the concept of consent and respect of another person's wishes or desires.

That's where the bloody battle is, not in the bathroom.

Oh thanks for telling us we're doing feminism wrong

Super helpful

Woman ? Or not a woman ? Completely agree this is the issue. Especially if your motive for being one is because it turns you on. That couldn't be more 'not woman'.

How it is possibly consensual if I don't know it's happening ?

I've never felt threatened by a lesbian because they are women. You may not understand that but I can promise you it's true.

denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity conforms with the gender

What are you not getting? My self identity doesn't 'conform with the gender' woman because I reject the concept of gender and I do not identify with femininity as anything other than a coercively imposed set of expectations.
Your definition of cisgender may be in the oed but it does not apply to me.

self-identity conforms with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex;

This does not apply to me.
Non-trans is offensive in the way non-man, non-white is. Defining me in relation to some other default. I already have a word that objectively describes what I am and excludes those who are not like me.

Cis as a term relates to gender, and if you reject gender it's objectionable to be categorised in a way that assumes you have one. Like assuming everyone is religious, including atheists.
Religious Christian
religious Hindu
religious atheist? It's a contradiction in terms.
my gender isn't cis in the same way that there is no atheist religion.
religion is a belief system that some people adopt and others reject. No point trying to force everyone to declare their religion once you accept some people reject all religions.
same with gender.

There is plenty of dodgy non consensual behaviour in the "kink" world. Why on earth do you think there wouldn't be? It's a perfect cover for abusive and predatory people.

Oh, and yes, let's talk about consent.

I do not consent to sharing female space with people who are not female. I do not consent to having smear tests performed by people who are male. I do not consent to being categorised by a mythical gender I do not have.

Do you respect my refusal to consent to those things, ATM?

I've never felt threatened by a lesbian because they are women. You may not understand that but I can promise you it's true.

To echo Datun's point, I have changed with women I knew were lesbians and it hasn't bothered me in the slightest, I wouldn't want to change with my gay male friends. For me it's not about sexuality at all it's about trusting women, knowing that we have essentially the same bodies and so we have a shared bodily experience, and not feeling exposed in a vulnerable situation.

It's funny ATM, how you think it's fine that people should get thrown out of trans support groups if they use certain arguments, because they are meant as "safe spaces". Why aren't women allowed any safe spaces then?

And you describing how pissed off you were when someone you didn't think deserved to be called "transgender" got up and was accepted as transgender is exactly the same as how I and I imagine most of the women on this thread feel when transwomen call themselves women. It's appropriation.

Going back on topic - what a curious concept.

The consequence of self identification.

I've already said I don't agree with full self identification so I won't repeat that point. Some kind of gatekeeper is vital.

Single sex spaces would still exist under this model, although envisioning a society where we don't need them is very Utopian. But of course someone could chose to swap gender like they swap underwear.

I don't think self identification leads to everything being unisex. I think eradicating gender leads to things being unisex.

Doctors will need to upgrade to think of people as collections of organs. 'Person has natal vagina' will be on their database.

95%+ of people will just carry on as normal anyway and wonder what the fuss is.

Of the remaining

Also, ATM I'd just like to say that I think it's incredibly disingenuous to claim to have gone through all the "female experiences" with your female friends and then later drop into conversation that you're only just starting to transition at work.

Clearly you may think you've gone through all the key "female experiences" but obviously you are ignoring all the benefits that male privilege will have brought you until this point.

Where to start.
would you please answer my questions on consent ATM?
and have you reconsidered referencing women using any words that relate to gender instead of sex (unless they have informed you thus is ok)?

I'll try to address your last point.

I have no objection to supporting people who identify as cross dressers, but I do think there needs to be a differentiation between trans women (who seek to live and be accepted in a new gender) and people that just like to express their femme side occasionally. Transsexual used to be the right term but it's fallen out of favour and transgender has been extended to cover everyone these days.

It seems you are on pretty much the same page as me on this tbh. Thank you for sticking around to talk and understanding what we are saying instead of screaming transphobe/terf and disappearing. More discussion is whats needed. The shutting down of anyone who does not agree just has to stop as that approach is clearly not working anymore.

The wider community will not agree with this though, as IMO the reason for everything bring lumped under 'trans' is so that some guys can latch onto genuine cases of transsexual people. They realise that most (if not all) people have sympathy with how distressing it must be to think you are the wrong sex. So they use this to push their own agendas.

Have you noticed an increase in intolerance due to the recent TA publicity? I would expect there has been a large increase as people are made to feel they have to take a side at the polar opposite side. Where as as far as I am aware (mind I know only 2 transsexual people, both post op) things were pretty fine before all of the recent rubbish was pushed to the forefront. The changing room thing...it was generally accepted that transwomen could use the womens without fuss.

Then the 'transgender' umbrella decided that men who are clearly men...are women too. And this is where the problems started. Now it kinda seems you have to come down on either 'men are women' or 'transwomen are men' with no inbetween or compromise available. And my friends (well..one is a friend, another is just someone who I drink with occasionally) have noticed a bit of a shift in attitude towards them..even from a few people they have known for years and never had any issue with before. Which is sad and just kinda further confirms to me that genuine transsexual people are being caught in this ridiculous crossfire when there does not even need to be the bloody war to begin with.

You clearly accept that male privilege is a thing as you posted an article about how a transman had acquired it through transitioning.

Just get rid of gender - it's a bit of an outdated concept. It's only really relevant for doctors or when people are getting intimate

How can you be having this conversation and still make no sense regarding what you call gender and what is sex?