Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Freshwater isn't it Lauren Jeska. Otherwise, as you were, great post.

'You might get on my saggy old tits, but I wouldn't like to think of you hurtling towards an ignominious doom for want of medical intervention.'

Ok this is serious and none of us should laugh. But hell that's funny.

Voyeuristic kinks (as alluded to by pontific) aren't in any way consensual. It is a sex crime in the UK and Canada.

if you aren't a feministy woman whose career started in 1975 and who plugged away at everything from paid maternity leave to sexist dress codes, my experience outweighs yours

My university career started in 1977 and work in 1982 and have worked full time ever since, short period of maternity leave excluded, although not sure what point you are making or how your experience outweighs mine.

ATM the IOC say this It is necessary to ensure insofar as possible that trans athletes are not excluded from the opportunity to participate in sporting competition. The overriding sporting objective is and remains the guarantee of fair competition.
The IOC position is about inclusivity in sports. They certainly haven't proven that transwomen have no sporting advantage. The uproar about allowable testosterone levels in the Olympics 800m (and the investigation into Jeska that lead to a man being stabbed for doing his job) show that it isn't cut and dried that "woman" can be categorised by testosterone levels.
And WTF? Trans people bang on about being "reduced to genitals" (including you on this thread) and yet have no issue at all with women being "reduced to" their levels of a male sex hormone. Fucking ridiculous.

You continue to use MTT and FTT and have an issue with me using cis once? The terms you are looking for are trans woman and trans man.

MTT is insulting and disrespectful. Cis just means 'not trans' which I have used numerous times without any issue. Call it even and skip using either?

The IOC decision was based on science. This wasn't a case of foot-stomping Trans activists, it was a case of scientific investigation and diagnosis. Letting us compete with men when we are at a distinct disadvantage is hardly fair either.

And that list you linked? Have you actually gone through the cases in any detail? Most of them are accusations rather than actual crimes and a portion of them are not even relevant:

'Man who is not on cross sex hormones, had any cosmetic surgeries to alter his appearance or even changed his legal gender on his ID gets to use women’s locker room and sauna at university' is not a violent or sexual offence last time I checked.

But thanks for the link - I will go and read through them when I get a chance. But it's overall statistics I'm after (which seem to be hard to come by for me as well). The rape statistic I've been quoted before are around 1 in 5 for women (22%) and around 45% for trans people depending on who created the statistics. The challenge is finding accurate stats on trans people, and also classifying trans people. Trans women of colour are the worst affected sadly.

Lauren Jeska was a case of journalistic failure in some cases (I'm well aware of this case) - but I agree her trans status was entirely relevant to her crime. But it's not a sexual assault on a woman is it?

I'm not saying trans women are saints. We come from every walk of life. But women as a whole aren't saints either so please don't try and tar us with a different brush.

As to trans women being attacked? How about this one:

www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/reports/news/a45037/woman-streamed-boss-sexual-harassment-facebook-live/

That's the kind of abuse we face (ironically she was cleaning toilets but the attack wasn't in one) from men.

Huffington Post did a great article about the whole bathroom debate that is worth reading:

www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/debunking-bathroom-myths_b_8670438.html

As to the kink/fetish scene. Yes there are trans women on there. There are also some who aren't. I know both kinds. Tvchix isn't a place for trans people, it's a place for cross dressers and transvestites - and there are plenty of people on there who say they are transgender when they are just cross dressing (I have a profile on there - mostly for advertising my support events these days).

Extending the 'transgender' umbrella to cover everyone who isn't cisgender unfortunately creates this confusion. I had to watch a transvestite (ironically wearing some fetish clothing) stand up at an Orlando Vigil recently stating that they were transgender which grated horribly (they then went on to link the offence to ISIS and indirectly to the Muslim faith which just added insult to injury).

I have no objection to supporting people who identify as cross dressers, but I do think there needs to be a differentiation between trans women (who seek to live and be accepted in a new gender) and people that just like to express their femme side occasionally. Transsexual used to be the right term but it's fallen out of favour and transgender has been extended to cover everyone these days.

We can exchange links to pages written by peers with the same viewpoints all day - but the fundamental facts remain the same. Society is changing and becoming more accepting of trans people. I'm working with anyone that listens to ensure this process is as smooth as possible. Educating where required, listening where required and also fighting when required. I don’t have the ‘my way or highway’ viewpoint of other trans activists, I’d rather try and build some bridges and find some common ground to work on (e.g. sex education) as feminism has a massive potential ally in the trans community.

Right now I'd rather spend my time ensuring trans people get proper employment as that is the biggest single issue we face right now outside violence. And the knock on effect is that trans people end up doing sex work because they can't get gainful employment, which just increases the prevalence of either sexual assault from prostitution ('post sex regret' from guys being a common one) or trans women in pornography which further stereotypes us!

To answer some other questions (I'm having a lot thrown at me, so bear with me).

'Alongside my peers' - I have experience some of those issues, but clearly not others which I have had shared with by my peers. I have been groped in bars by men (and I mean bars, not sex venues frequented by cross dressers). I have been cornered by men and felt threatened. I've been borderline sexually assaulted before (I' had a guy push me into a bathroom and try and shove his tongue down my throat). I've been catcalled numerous times. I've had guys ask to feel my boobs at a bar. I haven't had vaginal discharge or period leaks (clearly), but have discussed them with peers. So I haven’t had every single female experience that some of you have had, but I’ve had a lot of them (including struggling with liquid eyeliner…)

With regards to explaining how I feel feminine it's a hard concept to put into words. Equally I'm very aware that whatever I say is going to be dissected to the nth degree as well so I'm loathe to roll out any cliches. I explored my gender a lot before making the choice to transition. I've always known I was different since age 7 (not opening the transitioning children can of worms). I related way more to girls than boys (but didn't find boys attractive back then), but I didn't have a hatred of my boy parts (I have a mild hatred of my own parts these days, but not enough to need lower surgery to survive).

I think the clearest example is a recent evaluation I did. I am transitioning at work right now and was evaluated by my peers who know me as a boy. My evaluation listed areas of weakness as being passive, avoiding confrontation, being withdrawn and hard to get to know. When I read this out to the charity I work at (where I'm only known as female) the team literally thought I was talking about someone else. They couldn't understand how any of those terms could be used to refer to me.

Presenting as female and allowing myself to be the person I am inside has allowed me to be a far more confident, outgoing, engaging and supportive person than I ever was as a boy. All of that evaluation was external to me so just ratifies how I feel.

With regards to my hormone levels and gynecomastia, don't worry that's all under control. Although I do think I have a lot of symptoms of Kleinfelters and plan to get a karyotype done (sorry if that is TMI!).

I've probably missed some questions (and this is a long post already) so I'll scroll back and check when I get time.

I do appreciate you trying to engage with us. One thing I've noticed is that you are exploring everything with a trans lens - ie how does this impact trans people? This needs to be fair on trans people?
We are feminists and are doing the same from the perspective of women. It's acceptable for you to do this. But not acceptable for us - we are vilified, called TERFS and trans phobic.

Ps I have never in my life struggled with liquid eyeliner.

The reason for using mtt is factual. It has traction in reality. Cis does not.

@pontification - trans women want access to the bathroom to pee.

We aren't there to masturbate, we probably can't even get erections.

I'm not saying there aren't people that would do that. But they aren't trans women. There are some sick people out there, please don't compare them to us.

Most trans forums accept people who listen or who are allies. If however you are there using terms like MTT and throwing around arguments like this it's hardly surprised you were asked to depart. Most trans forums are safe spaces for trans people and their allies.

(For the record I've never ever found feminine hygiene products remotely sexual, nor have I ever had any desire to use one. That is one part of the female experience I haven't had. And I really don't get how you can find that arousing.)

ATM - can I just check - you say that your peers/ colleagues " know you as a boy " and you say you are currently transitioning .

Can I just ask how old you are now? And your name suggests that you have children - is that the case ?

Allowing in mtt allows in all men

ATM how would we be able to distinguish between trans-people who want to cop off in our toilets, and those who don't?

Now I'm jealous of the liquid eyeliner (although I'm almost there these days - practice and understanding that they are supposed to look like sisters not twins was a bit of a breakthrough).

I've not used the acronym TERF deliberately, mostly because I don't believe in ad hominem attacks. To me if you have to attack the other person in a debate you've run out of arguments, and hence lost.

I do post from the perspective of trans women primarily, but also transgender people as a whole and the LGBT community. I also try and look at the non-trans female perspective as well. But we all see the world through our own paradigm and it's very hard to shift that for most people.

Neither of us wants someone perving on us getting changed or using a bathroom - I think we can both agree on that. All I've ever done in a women's bathroom is use the toilet (sitting down I hasten to add), wash my hands and fix my makeup. And maybe engage in some polite dialogue with other people. Every single trans women I know has said the same.

Why don't you go and explain to the activists what their transgender campaign is doing ? Why don't you campaign for them to stop with the self identification lark?

atm I have no problem because I very rarely wear make up when I do I use smudgy kohl as it's easy, life is to short for me to want to spend it putting on make up

Neither of us wants someone perving on us getting changed or using a bathroom - I think we can both agree on that.

Agreed. How would you ever know?

I'm just seeing so much narcissism here.

This story illustrates what many of us are concerned about - simeone presenting very male, identifying as female and iffending against women. How do you suggest society deals with people like this then?
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.amp.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.amp.html

Do you think it's OK for this kind of thing to happen to women for the greater good of trans inclusivity?
Is there a way for us to identify "genuine" trans women vs. fetishists?

We asked a hundred transpeople are you going to get turned on by using the female loo ?

A) yes
B) No

Answers:

A) 0
B) 100

Ah right, that's ok then, in you come.

@Kr1stina - I do have kids, and I qualify as a 'late transitioner'.

Started my transition after 40, mostly due to spending too much time raising kids and trying to do the male thing and failing miserably. It's a common story with some of my peers.

I'm not massively 'masculine', not 'lesbian' and don't fit a lot of trans stereotypes mentioned in this thread. Mostly because trans people don't really fit any of the stereotypes.

You should be fighting pressure to do the male thing then. That's not our fault - why should we pay the price?

I don't have an easy answer to telling fetishistic cross dressers from genuine trans women. However:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/1454961/playboy-bunny-dani-mathers-who-fat-shamed-a-woman-by-taking-naked-picture-in-the-gym-could-face-criminal-prosecution/

It's not just trans women taking photos of other women in changing rooms. At least we don't post them on the internet.

Again we can trade stories and links about this. But anecdotes don't make statistics and are poor science.

Is there a risk letting trans women into your bathrooms? I honest can't say it is zero. But you seem to think it's significantly higher than it actually is. And it's been happening for decades without you knowing. What I want to do is find a way to make it appropriate, to make sure women of all genders feel safe using their bathrooms and to ensure that we keep on top of that.

Unisex bathrooms are amazing but require retrofitting - and whilst that would be amazing I fully appreciate the cost involved! One bar I know in Manchester just had 'urinals' and 'stalls' which worked well.

Ironically every festival you have ever been probably had unisex toilets (portaloos), and every home has a unisex bathroom.

But I feel that is the wrong fight - bathrooms are much safer spaces (and there are statistically a small amount of cases of people being attacked in bathrooms).

I feel changing spaces are very different to bathrooms - access to changing spaces should be more tightly controlled. I don't have an immediate solution - the GRC is one option but that needs to be made simpler and less bureaucratic. I'm not sure I agree with the Norwegian approach where you can just change your gender online - I do feel that some form of medical gate-keeping is appropriate (the current UK approach is too draconian). For instance co-morbid conditions can be taken into account (e.g. paraphilias), as well as sex offences.

If you only let trans women in that have the correct identification (i.e. have a driving license with an 'F' on it) this is one solution. If someone wanted to do that for perverse reasons they need to convince a doctor of his, go through some complex processes and ideally go on HRT.

I do feel that being convicted of a sex offense should prevent obtaining of a GRC - but I suspect some do-gooder will disagree with that. They can still get HRT and go through transition if they desire but allowing a convicted rapist access to female spaces should never happen.

Cis just means 'not trans'

No it doesn't. 'Cisgender' means 'identifies with the gender ascribed to sex' which is absolutely not correct to describe gender critical women who reject the concept of innate gender identity.
I don't identity with being the woman gender. I am female (I don't identify with it) and I reject the socially constructed ideas of femininity and the woman gender role.
Please explain how I'm cisgender?

Serious question. Does someone who has gone through the process preclude them from having a fetish? Can the two go hand in hand?

And the argument that 'you have crap going on in your changing rooms already, so here have some more', doesn't work.

@Datun

I prefer the term 'kink' as fetish is correlated with psychoses. There are trans women who are into kink. I could chat for ages about kink (I've done presentations for female groups around kink before).

For me there is a very strong disconnect between kink / sexuality and my trans status. Being sexualised for my trans status is a massive turn off. And I don't get 'turned on' by putting on feminine clothing in the slightest.