Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

God the lecturing is getting on my nerves. Atm if you went and argued with transactivists against self identification you would achieve much of what you want to achieve. That is, greater acceptance of transwomen who have modified their bodies to a significant degree.

I agree it's sad for more reasonable transpeople WM. Transpeople will need to recognise that while transactivism continues to be so misogynistic and objectionable this will get worse as more women become aware and the issues are more polarised. They also have an interest in stamping out the misogyny in the movement and they need to accept that women are also an oppressed group and should have their rights respected.

Seriously ATM, trying to discuss this with you when you don't understand the difference between sex and gender is pointless.

You're dreadfully confused and out of your depth it seems.

One bar I know in Manchester just had 'urinals' and 'stalls' which worked well.

While I would have no issue using unisex loos...this sounds horrendous to me. Mostly as I think urinals are fucking disgusting creations and thoroughly unneeded. Having worked in bars all of my life..the mens room often actually made me feel physically sick due to the urinals. I see no need for them at all. Funnily enough a lot of men I know think the exact same

Personally I would be all for unisex facilities and would neither prefer using the womens nor unisex if both were an option...would go for whichever was less busy no matter who was inside tbh. However, I just cannot look at things like this from an entirely personal perspective..I have friends who have suffered horrific sexual assualts by men and are actually terrified of being in small spaces with men. I have to think of them too. So whilst I would have no issue at all changing/peeing/whatever next to a bloke...not everyone feels the same. As such, I just cannot go for the 'identify' thing at all...

You are right in saying transwomen have been using womens spaces for years without anyone knowing. As I said, this seemed to work pretty well. Its the push for acceptance of men in womens areas simply by what they 'feel in their head' that is the issue.

*"Oh, and yes, let's talk about consent.

I do not consent to sharing female space with people who are not female. I do not consent to having smear tests performed by people who are male. I do not consent to being categorised by a mythical gender I do not have.

Do you respect my refusal to consent to those things, ATM?"*

I don't consent to paying taxes.
I don't consent to roads having white lines on them.
I don't consent to being touched by men without them asking.

One of those is actually using your consent. The other two are making demands from the rest of society that are probably not going to happen.

The kink world isn't full of predatory people. They try, but they get discovered very quickly, outed, thrown out of clubs and ostracized. If you have ever engaged in it properly you would have seen this.

The problem in that world right now is people have read '50 shades of Grey' - which is just a how-to manual on abusive relationships and male predatory behaviour.

'It's funny ATM, how you think it's fine that people should get thrown out of trans support groups if they use certain arguments, because they are meant as "safe spaces". Why aren't women allowed any safe spaces then?'

A safe space is somewhere where you don't get attacked. Once someone starts attacking they lose access to the safe space. That's how safe spaces work.

Having a perceived chance of attacking and actually attacking are not the same thing. Anyone can join my trans support groups. Even an actual TERF. The second you start actually attacking my group then I will ask you to leave.

If you are polite, respectful to the people there (and don't steal too many biscuits) then you will be made welcome.

Can you see the difference?

'You're dreadfully confused and out of your depth it seems'

Did you read what I said about ad hominem attacks...?

Have you really just conflated a woman having no right to refuse a male-bodied health care practitioner performing a smear test with having no right to refuse having white lines painted on the road?

I think you may have just given us more insight into your true views on consent than you intended to

Just seen the oxford dictionary stuff. If we are going down that route...

Woman - An adult human female.
Female - Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Again, personally I have no issue with 'cis' in the context of this conversation because its useful to distinguish from transwomen and women, and if you refer to both as women, then fair enough stick a cis onto woman. I would find it offensive to be described as 'cis' woman outside of this conversation though as there would be no need.

But if some find it offensive in general, thats up to them. I do feel though that if you are going to stop using 'cis' in this convo for how it offends others, then it would be nice for others to stop using MTT if this offends you too.

The casual nature in which you describe someone committing a 'low level sexual offense' speaks volumes about your knowledge of what life is like for women.

If we must have a way to differentiate between trans and non trans, then transwomen and natal women would be more appropriate than 'cis'. Cis is just yet another gendered box that women are being forced in to, mostly by men and modern handmaidens.

And lastly. Biology is important. People are not collections of organs that exist in a vacuum. The oppression and discrimination women have faced for centuries is a direct result of our biology. Of our female bodies and our perceived or actual reproductive capacity.

The problem is that a woman (terf) in a groups of ta is not any physical danger to them, they can easily throw her out/ask her to leave their group.
A tw in a women's space is potentially a physical threat and not so easily dealt with by woman/women. As evidenced by the tw who punched a woman's teeth out because she asked him if he was in the right toilets.

Don't patronise me, ATM. I'm not basing what I say on 50 Shades of Grey. There is plenty of abusive behaviour and abusive people on the "kink" scene. There are a lot of very vulnerable people who gravitate towards it and then consent is really a bit more complicated.

Just because it's not your experience as a transwoman, don't presume to speak for others.

I do not consent to sharing female space with people who are not female - Right to privacy and dignity covered by sex based protections
I do not consent to having smear tests performed by people who are male - Right to privacy, dignity and bodily integrity covered by sex based protections

I don't consent to paying taxes / I don't consent to roads having white lines on them - no fucking idea, probably part of the social contract so you can withdraw consent by moving to another country.

HTH.

ATransMum - re "So now the Oxford English Dictionary isn't a reliable source"

Of course, it is. I'm glad that you brought up the subject of dictionary definitions.

Woman = Adult human female

Female = Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

As someone who believes in the veracity of dictionary definitions, would you say that transwomen fit the definition of the word 'female'? And if not, can transwomen possibly be women, since the definition of 'woman' is 'adult human female'?

You need to add 'ad hominem' to the list of stuff that you'd benefit from looking up, along with 'sex' 'gender' and 'consent'.

Consent, as it pertains to my bodily rights, personal boundaries, and human dignity, all the examples I gave were relevant.

Your wittering about white lines is so bizarre as to make me wonder what the hell you endorse in your teaching on consent in SRE.

If you want to dispute my examples, go ahead. White lines, FFS.

Why are people not allowed to question the trans narrative in your support group, but we are not allowed any public groups where we are not forced to listen to all manner of regressive gender bullshit and are expected to centre transwomen's needs rather than women's?

'You clearly accept that male privilege is a thing as you posted an article about how a transman had acquired it through transitioning.'

That's kind of like saying the sky is blue...?

I've never denied male privilege exists! I used to have it to a degree, it's something trans women give up. Some of us do retain some elements of it, I do agree. Some of us may have socialized as men (I personally found it very awkward, and the whole macho male thing grated horribly with me).

And the point where I start transitioning at work and the point where I first felt like I was trans are very different points in the timeline of my life. Please don't make assumptions.

@WankingMonkey - I haven't noticed an increase in intolerance, if anything it's been the opposite. I've noticed a significant growth in trans cases in my charity. More people are coming forward and finding the confidence to come out as trans. I think part of the increase in transphobic hate crime is purely because we are actually sticking up for each other more and reporting crimes that previously people would have gone home and just cried over. (I'm a hate crime champion in our local area).

When I came out to the last few work colleagues it was almost a non-issue. But I'll keep you posted as this is the last stage for me of transition (it's been quite a journey).

Acceptance at schools is growing and we have quite a few children exploring gender within the secondary school environment (we don't really deal with anyone under 10).

But I am seeing a backlash against the cross dresser end of the trans spectrum. I'm not one of the 'trannier than thou' brigade that looks down on anyone that isn't 'true trans', I do look out for anyone under the LGBT umbrella. But I do think there should be a term and/or line in the sand to differentiate.

"Just get rid of gender - it's a bit of an outdated concept. It's only really relevant for doctors or when people are getting intimate"

That doesn't even make sense.

Just get rid of gender - it's a bit of an outdated concept. It's only really relevant for doctors or when people are getting intimate. Outside of that it's just an arbitrary divider in society.

Is there anything worth saving about the concept of gender? Does it have any good points?

Again, we seem so close in opinion on this but yet so far. There would be no reason for doctors to use the likes of 'person with a natal vagina' as we are always going to need a word that separates us on biology or things just get so confusing. There are always going to be round about half of us who have the ability have babies, and half have the ability to help make said babies. The half who can make babies, will always be (overall, not case by case) smaller and weaker than the opposite. Its just biology, it cannot be changed.

So if we do away with man and woman...because of 'gender' then we would need to come up with another word to describe those biologically different.

So its a kind of...round in circles thing.

I agree 'gender' is an outdated concept. Its society made. Its damaging to women. Luckily enough, it doesn't actually mean anything anyway as people can break out of the boxes quite well, and have done for ages. However, this will never change the fact that women (or adult human females) are biologically different from men (or adult human males).

*Have you really just conflated a woman having no right to refuse a male-bodied health care practitioner performing a smear test with having no right to refuse having white lines painted on the road?

I think you may have just given us more insight into your true views on consent than you intended to*

Nope, didn't say that. That actually is a good example of consent, because it is your personal space.

A public bathroom isn't your personal space. You can't say 'I don't want that person to come in here'. You don't set the rules for that space, the owner of the establishment does or the Government does.

Hence my 'white lines' quote.

Oddly enough, people with natal vaginas are banned from driving in Saudi Arabia, and also banned from going anywhere unless accompanied by a relative with a penis.

Although clearly this is neither a sex or gender based issue. Perhaps it's a non-issue.

ATransMum - re "I think eradicating gender leads to things being unisex"

At this point in the debate, should you not start recognising the difference between sex and gender?

"Doctors will need to upgrade to think of people as collections of organs. 'Person has natal vagina' will be on their database."

Yeah, somehow I really don't think so

Doctors will be the people who actually know the differences between male and female. I'm fairly certain that they can be relied upon to understand that normally XX >> female >> vagina.

"Just get rid of gender - it's a bit of an outdated concept. It's only really relevant for doctors or when people are getting intimate."

Again, I am flabbergasted that you don't understand sex and gender are different things

If we get rid of gender, where would that leave you? What would you have transitioned from/to?

Because as far as sex goes, you are still male (= of the sex that can make sperm, as per dictionary definitions) and not female (= of the sex that can bear young or make eggs).

One of the features of male privilege is an inability to recognise you have it. No one reading your posts could miss yours.

ad hominem
ad ˈhɒmɪnɛm/
adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

So when you say 'You're dreadfully confused and out of your depth it seems.' you are attacking me and not my position. The use of the second person infers that if I'm not mistaken?

With the greatest of respect, I don't think you have given up much of your male privilege. You're not really listening to what people are saying, you're handwaving away their concerns, you're lecturing and telling them what they should concentrate on rather than what they actually want to discuss. This is behaviour, as women, that we associate with men. That is why many women don't accept that transwomen are women. Because they behave very much like men.

Cross post with fem!