Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

[BertrandRussell]

Because I am beginning to think that i will never be able to say anything about trans issues without being accused of being transphobic.

It seems to me that in some cases trans rights are just incompatible with women's rights. Obviously then, someone has to step aside- and if I want the ones stepping aside to be transwomen then I am being, I suppose, transphobic.

So has the time come for feminists to say to trans women "I support you to live the life you want to. I will stand up to and with you against people who abuse you and are violent to you. I will call you what you want to be called. I will defend your employment rights, your right to housing and any other "social" service. I will defend your right to appropriate medical treatment. In fact, I will defend you and support you in anything up to the point where your rights conflict with and take precedence over the rights of women. From that point, my allegiance is with women.

If this causes you to call me transphobic so be it. I will continue to support you up to that point regardless."

fela

By the definitions i have read i am gender queer and i have PCOS so i am super trans

I do not want to go into the mens changing room, i will stick with the womens

Although i am tempted by the loos

I am obviously joking and i am sympathetic to anyone who is struggling with being trans

Because technically they are or have been women?

That last was in response to felas obv.

How we can do it? I don't know, I guess some third category where prisons, changing rooms, sport and so on are concerned.

I'd like to hear more from trans men too - and trans women. I think Mn would be too tough for them though, many are quite fragile.

I was watching a programme last night "What Were You Inking" and a trans men was one of the folk featured. They seemed lovely and I think we sometimes forget the real people, often vulnerable, often having a shit time, often with mental health issues.

I want to hear more from trans men because the trans movement as a whole is not just 'people born with penises/socialised as male' telling 'people born with vaginas/socialised as female' what to do and even what they are.

There are many sites online where you can engage wih trans folk or see what th believe in or ant from society. I think there are just less trans men, seems to be many more trans women or th ar just more vocal or loud or political.

"It's just an innate sense of justice that insists we can resolve these issues without denying trans people the right to exist and identify as they please."

I absolutely agree with you. But as BarryMerry said upthread, the rights of TW/TM are incompatible with those of biological wo/men. A transwoman HCP's right to be treated as a biological woman could be in direct conflict with my right as a biological woman to be examined only by someone of my own sex. I don't see any way of squaring that circle.

Female-to-male always been far far fewer than male-to-female which is interesting in itself. But I guess trans women will be more vocal having been socialised as men, I'd just really like to hear some other voices on these threads.

Yes, Lynda - hence my comparison with abortion rights. The law can't be neutral, it has to come down on one side or the other. The proposed right of a transwoman to have any form of employment, including HCP/carer etc, that a woman might take, under exactly the same terms and conditions as a woman (e.g. rules concerning which situations a chaperone is needed) conflicts directly with a woman's right to say "I do not wish to have my genitals examined by someone with a penis". The law has to decide one way or the other - there is no neutral position.

"Do some of these people for whom how they feel about their 'gender' is so important not have the slightest consideration for the feelings of women? Telling a woman who may be unhappy about hirsutism, acne and infertility that shes 'transgender' isnt exactly helpful, is it?"

Reeks of misogyny.

Hirsutism/infertility = you fail as both a walking womb and a sex object = womanhood denied

Because we all know that the only use for women is either to procreate or be conventionally attractive to men. Women aren't allowed to be complex and varied.

The right to a chaperone for intimate examinations applies whether the HCP is the same gender as the patient or not though?

Does it, Devil? That doesn't square with my experience of the health system. I personally don't care whether the person examining me is of the same biological sex or not, so have had numerous internal exams carried out by men, as well as ones carried out by women. The men have always gone to fetch a chaperone (I haven't had to ask - they do it automatically as much for their own protection as mine). I have never been asked by a female HCP whether I would like a chaperone there.

It should be offered, if it isn't you can request a chaperone and where possible they should provide one.

"The right to a chaperone for intimate examinations applies whether the HCP is the same gender as the patient or not though?"

Not sure that's the point.......

So women have to change their behaviour to accommodate transwomen?

The bit you didn't quote was 'how can this circle be squared' or similar wording, the chaperone is one way for that particular hypothetical scenario.

Oh no it doesn't say that anywhere! I must have imagined it or read it somewhere else. Sorry!

I honestly don't see how a chaperone would "square the circle" of a woman wanting to be treated by another woman.

If it's not life or death stuff you can just ask for someone else to do it. I think I'm missing the general point here, should trans people be barred from medicine?

"The right to a chaperone for intimate examinations applies whether the HCP is the same gender as the patient or not though?"

Ok.. that's a solution, but an imperfect one.

Say you are a woman who does not want, under any circumstance, to have a man looking at and touching you in any intimate areas. How does the right to a chaperone help? So then you can have someone biologically male who ID's as a woman doing the procedure, but don't worry, a woman will be watching? Remembering of course that you can't discriminate against MTT, so the woman watching could still have "her" penis too.

This is why there is a problem with self ID overriding everything else.

But you can ask for someone else, if it's not some super urgent thing. Should med schools screen applicants to weed out trans or potential trans people at an early stage? I don't understand what is wanted here!

I am alarmed at the link re Government papers and analysis ed posted by NotAnotherHarlot

At what stage is this committee/consultation that Maria Miller is chairing at? Am I right in reading that it does indeed require that self declared transwomen will have access to women's spaces? If so, then it's further on than I thought.

"We recommend that the Equality Act be amended so that the occupational requirements provision and / or the single-sex / separate services provision shall not apply in relation to discrimination against a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Gender Recognition Act 2004."

Recommendation of the Transgender Equality Report.

"Should med schools screen applicants to weed out trans or potential trans people at an early stage? "

Of course they shouldn't and what's more no-one on here has said anything that comes even close to that view. That is a complete and utter straw man.