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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

706 replies

PinkyofPie · 28/07/2016 15:40

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim Shock and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them Sad

OP posts:
ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 20:15

Oh Pinky you're so selfish you know that Angry

You're supposed to care about everyone and everything otherwise you're just a cruel nasty twat who clearly hates the menz Angry

So selfish.

Wink
PinkyofPie · 31/07/2016 20:16

Toads don't forget Mike Tyson! Oh and a number of 100 or so fuckwit celebrities also signed a petition so the probably-rapist (who managed to do a bunk out the US when he was to be put on trial for raping a child) Roman Polanski could attend a ceremony in he country where, not only he was accused but where his victim lives, so people could tell him how amazing he is. They thought his extradition order for his sex crimes against children should be set aside because he made a few good films.

But really, it's the menz who're the real victims here.

In the meantime, I doubt anyone is queueing up offering Amber Heard work. And Ulrika Johnson's career never recovered after she had the temerity to say she was raped. That poor man, she's a woman and had 4 kids by 4 different men so must be a liar

OP posts:
ripples101 · 31/07/2016 20:17

Yes ripples I do find it hard to believe that men have their lives ruined in the epidemic numbers people like to claim because of being accused of rape.

Men's lifes ruined in epidemic numbers? (epidemic being the key word) Was that always your assertion? Because if it was then I agree with you.

On an individual basis however (irrespective of whether the indivudual was male or female), I don't find it hard to believe that individuals have had their lives ruined because of a false allegation.

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 20:52

Catching up on the thread, as my earlier "bye for now" meant I was off for a while, doing RL.

Gone, I linked to WBY not to give you homework but because you seemed to be misunderstanding the campaign, if you think it's about removing trials for rape.

"Perhaps I am more positive about where we could/should be going as a society because the young people I work with rarely make any distinction between rape or abuse of men vs women"

I'm really pleased to hear this, Emma. There is always some awful criticism of victims eg Adam Johnson's, glad there's push back too.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 31/07/2016 21:20

Epidemic numbers? Does something need to happen in epidemic numbers for it to be a problem?

It's often pointed out here that the statistics for stranger rape are vanishingly small. Does that make it less significant? Would you appreciate it if men said 'Well it hardly ever happens so no need for preventative action...'

jacquetta You misunderstood my post actually. I was highlighting feminism's uneasy relationship with the legal system, not suggesting that you were actually campaigning for no trials. Hmm

And why do we need to have real victims? How about acknowledging hurt and injustice wherever you see it, rather than judging the validity of their claim according to their sex, or assuming that people who are concerned about one mustn't care about the other?

I may be wrong, but I thought that feminists would ideally like to see a world in which the sexes were equal and, without diminishing what it means to be female, gender free. But it seems that nowhere are gender lines so entrenched as in feminism.
Your life has been ruined by something you didn't do. Are you female? If so, that's awful. Are you male? If so, get to the back of the queue and how dare you suggest you are a victim too.

Spare the anecdotes aye, we could all be trading anecdotes all night. It's not evidence.

Rape is a special case. Both rape and the accusation of an innocent person having raped are an invasion of privacy in a manner that is unlike any other crime except possibly child abuse. There's no question about that. The courts do recognise it because they grant anonymity to the victim. Until the guilty verdict is passed, the accused is also potentially a victim. It doesn't matter how rarely. Unless the verdict is 'guilty' they are a victim in taking any punishment at all for a crime the court has found they are not guilty of.

This is the unfortunate consequence of, among other things, the 'I believe you' campaign and is, as we have said, unique among crimes except possibly child abuse; we instantly believe the person speaking on their word alone. Feminism has had that effect on many people in society (and I think on balance it's a good thing). But we need to recognise that the impact of 'turning up the volume' of the rape survivor's voice has been to 'turn down the volume' of the accused. To prevent potentially innocent people getting caught up in the crossfire, I believe there are grounds to refrain from publicly labelling a face and a name.

OP, your last post is a case study in bigotry. Men who have not committed rape are entitled to justice and freedom from negative consequences as much as any woman. They shouldn't have to shoulder consequences and be an unfortunate casualty of the feminist cause, simply because other members of their race are despicable people. And thinking this does not diminish my concern for women - that is possible, you know. To care deeply and equally about both sides. In fact, it's the only way you are ever going to win the battle for hearts and minds.

You don't have to stop feeling concern for women - just extend your concern. It doesn't mean we can't throw the book at rapists. Otherwise, how can you, in all seriousness, expect the man on the street to give a flying fuck about you? This is about all of us and about justice, surely, and it goes beyond gender boundaries. If you want a different world, show the way. And no, don't be adorable. Be what you are demanding that they be. Not for them but for yourselves.

tryingtomake I am sincerely sorry for the experience you had, both the event and the aftermath. But please, don't judge the system without having given it a chance. You didn't give the legal system an opportunity to bring this person to justice.

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:23

Anyone who said vanishingly small about stranger rapes would've been corrected.

RufusTheReindeer · 31/07/2016 21:26

gone

Are you against anonymity for those accused of other crimes such as murder or racist attacks?

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:26

Here are some key statistics about sexual violence:

Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour
Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year
1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16
Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence choose to report to the police
Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence

From rape crisis. So around 10% are stranger rapes.

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:27

From here

rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:36

An old paper and hopefully things have improved but a 2002 study showed US college students thought 50% of rape complaints were made up.

This is the result of giving overmuch media space to reporting on false accusations vs reporting on the far more prevalent crimes of rape and sexual abuse.

www.cluteinstitute.com/ojs/index.php/CIER/article/view/1201/1185

Felascloak · 31/07/2016 21:38

Flowers trying
I think sometimes people (I mean friends and family) minimise stuff people they know have been through because they don't want to face up to the horrificness of it, or have to deal with the consequences. It's easier to deny it. It does hurt though.

I'm sorry this thread has made you feel not believed. I believe you and I'd believe you irl too

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:40

Does something need to happen in epidemic numbers for it to be a problem?

I would say so, yes.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:40

Does something need to happen in epidemic numbers for it to be a problem?

I would say so, yes.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/07/2016 21:41

the 'I believe you' campaign and is, as we have said, unique among crimes except possibly child abuse;

The point being there is no other crime where the starting point is not to believe team victim.

I bet there are more fraudulent burglary claims than false rape claims but the starting point is not the assumption a person is lying about being burgled.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:43

No idea why that posted twice Blush

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/07/2016 21:45

Does something need to happen in epidemic numbers for it to be a problem?

I would say so, yes

I disagree with just about everything gone is saying but, no something doesn't have to be epidemic levels to be a problem.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/07/2016 21:46

"the victim " not "team victim"

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:50

Rape is a far bigger problem though.

I think people need some perspective.

And gone is seriously pissing me off.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:51

People tend to disbelieve rape victims.

And even when they believe them there is still a tendency to excuse the rapist and try to blame the victim instead.

Why is this?

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:52

Ripple, stats are obviously very hard to come by for rapists; i said more than 1 in 100 as I had a vague memory of one study showing 1 in 20 and another 1 in 60; my main point with the post was that as each woman probably knows, even if not well, at least 100 men as family, friends, acquaintances and colleagues, most of us are likely to know a rapist. (Yes, I know that's a bit simplistic from the stats POV!)

I did find this article about college rapists, showing it at more than 10% across two studies, but not sure of selection criteria for the cohorts.

archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2375127

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/07/2016 21:52

Otherwise, how can you, in all seriousness, expect the man on the street to give a flying fuck about you?

This is the bit I really don't get. I'm not sure who your man on the Clapham omnibus is but I can't get my head round the idea that a man's concern for how rape victims are treated is only given conditionally if he gets an assurance anyone making false accusation is dealt with.

Or why you think false accusations are not dealt with- because they are.

AyeAmarok · 31/07/2016 21:55

I bet there are more fraudulent burglary claims than false rape claims but the starting point is not the assumption a person is lying about being burgled.

Very good point.

JacquettaWoodville · 31/07/2016 21:55

"I'm not sure who your man on the Clapham omnibus is but I can't get my head round the idea that a man's concern for how rape victims are treated is only given conditionally if he gets an assurance anyone making false accusation is dealt with."

Yy to that, lass

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 31/07/2016 21:56

You didn't give the legal system an opportunity to bring this person to justice.

Not really the point of the thread, but seriously?!

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 31/07/2016 21:58

I feel a bit guilty about now about not reporting my rapist.

What if he raped other women after me? I could have stopped that if I had reported him.

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