Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

[PinkyofPie]

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them

Considering even convicted rapists still have people defending them whilst pissing all over their victims I find it very hard to believe that men who were simply accused of rape (falsely or otherwise) but then acquitted carry these huge stigma around with them for the rest of their lives and have their lives ruined.

You are trying to encourage, force and persuade men to care deeply about a group in society to which they don't belong

Eh? Why would men not care about how rape victims are treated and/or rape is prosecuted?

Not only should those falsely accused of rape not be punished without cause, but the accused in rape trials should not be punished, either by the legal system or by society, unless the trial ends in a guilty verdict. That's what the legal system is there for

And that is what happens. No one is being punished by being charged by being put on trial.

To be clear if a trial results in a not guilty verdict it does not follow , as some posters seem to be suggesting, the Crown will punish the victim by prosecuting the victim for a malicious accusation.

However there is no basis whether from an academic or philosophical viewpoint of how law works or a practical application of the law for giving any accused anonymity.

I find it very hard to believe that men who were simply accused of rape (falsely or otherwise) but then acquitted carry these huge stigma around with them for the rest of their lives and have their lives ruined.

It does happen. Has happened.

My mother was accused of an accounting fraud with the company she worked with. She went to trail, proved her innocence, but the effect the whole process had on her was profound. It had an effect. Affected her ability to find another job. Affected her confidence. Affected how she felt other people regarded her, even after proving her innocence.

This kind of thing can and does ruin lives.

Irrespective of the crime one is accused of, if one is innocent of that crime, then it will have a profound effect.

So what are you suggesting?

No crime should ever be prosecuted unless the accused are running amok in the high street like the killers of Lee Rigby or caught red handed wearing stripey T-shirts, masks and carrying bags marked swag?

Everything you say is subjective to your mother. That is not to minimise her feelings but it is not evidence of how objectively others viewed her.

but the accused in rape trials should not be punished, either by the legal system or by society, unless the trial ends in a guilty verdict.

I'd love to know what you think of the recent case where a Sexual Risk Order was granted on a man, Gone?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/14/it-consultant-says-his-life-is-ruined-after-police-forced-him-to/

Take Brock Turner for instance.

Two men caught him sexually assaulting an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and once he realised he had been caught he tried to run away. Luckily one of the men caught him and they managed to keep him there until the police arrived.

Despite the fact the woman was unconscious and he was caught in the act by two other people, there are still people who are insisting that Turner is innocent, he was wrongly convicted, it wasn't his fault because he was drunk and he didn't know what he was doing, etc (being drunk obviously didn't stop him from trying to run away once he realised he had being caught, did it?).

Turner's friends and family have also defended him and his actions to the point of stupidity. His father, Dan Turner, even wrote a letter saying that his son doesn't deserve to go to jail, he won't be able to cope in there, etc and he even went as far to say that his son shouldn't be going to jail for "20 minutes of action" . Yes he described his son sexually assaulting an unconscious woman as "20 minutes of action" .

Some of Turner's friends have also said that he doesn't deserve to go to jail because he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing.

The comments section on youtube and articles online are flooded with people defending him whilst shaming the victim - she's a slut, a liar, crying wolf, she wasn't raped it was just drunken regret sex, etc. Those last three don't even make sense because a) she wasn't the one who accused him and in fact she didn't wake up until later in hospital and b) he wasn't charged with rape because no sex took place - he was charged with sexual assault because that is what he has done - he sexually assaulted her. So how could it have been "drunken regret sex" if no sex even took place?

Not to mention all the "oh the poor dear, his life is ruined now" comments

Irrespective of the crime one is accused of, if one is innocent of that crime, then it will have a profound effect.

Right so you admit that it isn't just rape that can have a damaging effect if someone is falsely accused? Being falsely accused of any crime could have serious repercussions, right?

So why is it just rape that is singled out as being damaging?

I'm suggesting that it does have an affect on people's lives.

You're right, it isn't evidence. It is anecdotal at best. But it isn't about how others objectively view her. It is about how she subjectively views herself AFTER going through such an experience. And it is that subjectivity (not the objectivity of others) that results in having a profound affect.

I'm merely stating that it can and has ruined people's lives, careers. Having said that, I don't want to detract from the real issue at hand here in this particular thread while making this particular point. I'm in no way trying to suggest or argue for the kind of situation you questioned in your post.

You are trying to encourage, force and persuade men to care deeply about a group in society to which they don't belong.

Am I? That's certainly not how I recognise feminism. Besides should we really have to persuade men to care about women?

You are asking men to care about you in a way you don't care about them, and you feel it's owed to you. Maybe it is.

When did I say I didn't care about men? That's a huge assumption based on one opinion I have about rape.

If there was a situation that negatively affected a relatively small number of women but was beneficial for a larger proportion of men, feminists would not consider that an acceptable price for women to pay. Yet false accusations are like that and you expect men not only to be fine with it, but to continue to support you. That is not just, nor is it realistic.

So justice for rape survivors is "a price men have to pay"? Explain please. Are you suggesting that women should then suffer because a few men (and we know for a fact it is just a few) may or may not have a false accusation brought against them?

Statistically (I don't know where the statistic came from so it may not be accurate), I've seen a figure floating around the web that a rape victim is 20 times more likely to see the rapist jailed than someone who has been falsely accused of rape is likely to see their accuser sentenced. That isn't just either.

Link please otherwise you've just made that up

Not only should those falsely accused of rape not be punished without cause, but the accused in rape trials should not be punished, either by the legal system or by society, unless the trial ends in a guilty verdict

You keep coming back to this point, but when are those accused of rape punished by law before a guilty verdict? Or,
Come to think of it, society?

Feminism seems to have an uneasy relationship with the legal system. On one hand, you want to use it and reform it.

When did I say I wanted to reform the legal system?? Seriously you're making stuff up now

Perhaps it is isn't surprising that you are in favour of the punishment for the accused beginning as early as possible

Eh? Again when did I say this

And yes, it does matter whether or not you are just because, just as the with the 'black lives matter' protests, the people you are appealing to are also the people you are accusing. They need to see you as trustworthy and capable of a measured response that acknowledges their rights as well as your own.

Aaaand Bingo! Tou have successfully completed all anti-feminist rhetoric - we should be nice And reasonable so the menz will look at us adoringly. However else will we get them to respect us wimmin?!

Brock Turner isn't the only case where that has happened btw.

I can think of quite a few cases off the top of my head where rapists have been defended whilst their victims have been shamed.

The Steubenville high school rape case for instance.

Rape is supposedly seen by all as a horrible crime, and yet these kinds of discussions are rarely, if ever, allowed to focus upon the female victims, because they are derailed by some who point out that "women make false accusations", "accusations can ruin men's lives", "men get raped too".

YY ripples, alologists think saying "there's never any excuse for rape it's a disgusting crime" means they are not contributing to a rape culture. I've never heard anyone say they don't find rape abhorrent, but still hold misogynistic views re rape

Right so you admit that it isn't just rape that can have a damaging effect if someone is falsely accused? Being falsely accused of any crime could have serious repercussions, right?

So why is it just rape that is singled out as being damaging?

I feel like I'm being led down a path that I never intended to step upon. I admit that it isn't just rape? Did my post imply that it was just rape? I cited an anecdotal example outside of rape only to show that yes, an accusation, any accusation can have a profound effect.

I have never singled out anything.

The only thing I have said in this entire thread (across my 3 posts submitted to this thread) is that a false allegation can have a profound affect, but even then, my very first post specifically stated that the whole notion of focusing on a false accusation in a topic such as this can only ever be a distraction from the actual and very serious issue at hand.

I have also never said that being falsely accused of rape can never be damaging. I'm pretty sure that I even said earlier on this thread that there have been a few cases where it has been damaging and had serious repercussions.

However I have seen no evidence to suggest that being falsely accused of rape is worse or more damaging than being falsely accused of any other serious crime.

Being falsely accused of any crime can (and the key word here is can because it won't always) have serious consequences.

I'd be interested to know what impact the i believe you campaign has had. Or how much things have changed in general.

I was violently and repeatedly raped throughout the night by a friend. My then best friend who went with me to get the MAP believed me about my experience but thought I partly brought it on myself by being so drunk and putting myself in that situation. And if course he was drunk too so can't really be accountable.

When I hypothetically tested the water with my mother her view was the same.

When he told my male friends he'd been a bastard to me they told him he was out of order, had a chuckle about his womanising ways. All stayed friends.

When I told my husband he thought the bloke was unpleasant. Didn't say much else. Never mentioned it again.

So I thought it pretty much was my fault and it wasn't really rape. Hard to shake that feeling.

Many years later reading MN about other problems i started to realise there was a different angle to consent.

Since then one of the male friends suggested I might want to avoid a situation because he was still friends with the person. My mum took herself off to bed upset cutting conversation dead because she didn't want to know. And my stbxh thinks it's acceptable to pressure me into sex because he was fed up waiting post DC2.

I'd love to know how much attitudes have changed. Because I came to this chat board very recently after a few years already on MN thinking "I believe you" was just a kind thing to say to women in case it was true. I didn't think it meant women were actually believed.

I'm not convinced outside this sort of environment they are.

I know that it's easy to get stuck in your own circumstances and I am a bit. But I think it's relevant that i read a thread like this and why on earth would I feel I'd be believed.

Yet people still insist that being accused of rape will ruin someone's life and insist that this happens in epidemic numbers and more often than being accused of other crimes

Is anyone able to get in touch with Craig Charles? I think he must have missed the memo that his life should be in ruins now.

I agree that being accused of any crime you are innocent of will always have an effect. There's always a risk that anyone on trial is an innocent person.

However this does not mean that this potential risk should ever trump the very good reasons there are for naming accused people who are charged with any crime. And it does not mean that rape should be a 'special case' when it comes to retaining anonymity for the accused.

So sorry trying

I don't really know what to say except you have some twatty people in your life.

But pinky being accused of rape is just so much worse than being accused of any other crime, no matter how serious that other crime may be.

Of course I don't have any evidence that being accused of rape is worse...I just know that being accused of rape carries this huge stigma that will ruin your life that doesn't happen for other crime. Again I have no evidence for this. I just know it does!

We need to protect all the menz at all cost!

Has anyone managed to get in touch with Craig Charles yet? Someone really needs to tell him that he's doing this whole accused of rape thing all wrong.

Toads...

Both you and I (and everyone else) know what you stated and I responded to what you DID say. I used an example of being falsely accused of ANOTHER crime when responding to you. For the very reason of implying that being falsely accused of ANY crime can have serious consequences upon the life of the person who is accused.

So, unlike yourself (you did say that you quote "find it hard to believe"), I don't find it hard to believe that it can have such consequences.

And he's being doing it wrong all these years!

Someone really needs to tell him...

Yes ripples I do find it hard to believe that men have their lives ruined in the epidemic numbers people like to claim because of being accused of rape.

trying

I hav never been raped but was repeatedly sexually assaulted and harassed by a male family member. When I told my mum she minimised it tremendously and asked if I had done anything to lead him on, as at the time I was a "promiscuous teenager". She is will close to said family member and We Don't Talk About It.

This isn't an isolated thing. Sexual crimes against women have been, and still are, played down every day and brushed under the carpet. You don't have to look very far for similar story upon similar story. I care, I want things to change for women, I want a different world for my DD. I don't want her to be raped or assualted and have her rapist walk around Scot free.

And people really expect me to focus my efforts and concern on a tiny number of men who get falsely accused instead, otherwise why should men start giving a shit and stop raping? It's the epitome of male entitlement, smacks of MRA and shows some people couldn't give a flying fuck about women, except to question their valid beliefs that women should stop being fucking raped.

Some more links about the recent SRO case for a man found Not Guilty of rape, for background, gone.

m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11838730.Alleged_rapist_claims_violent_sex_was_consensual/

m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11829331.Rape_trial__GPs____were_told_of_sex_fantasies___/

m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11835534.Alleged_rapist_told_doctor_he_was_dangerous_and_needed_stopping__court_hears/?ref=rss