Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

[PinkyofPie]

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them

Mostly though I would say in answer to OP, is that the reason the victim was subjected to such vile abuse in this case is that the family that raises a vile misogynistic scumbag rapist and the people they are friends with are probably all cut from the same cloth.
That's why I get concerned sometimes about the tone some people here take with those who don't agree 100% with their approach to these issues because generally the people taking the time to debate issues on a feminism board on Mumsnet are not the enemy and are aspiring to the same end result.

Like it or not misogyny is alive and well in the world which is why Hillary Clinton will be subjected to a completely different level of sexual and gender focussed abuse and hate by people who disagree with her politics than Obama ever was by people who disagreed with his. I've really been shocked by the ease with which people post misogynistic hate compared to racist hate on public sites like Facebook while following the UK elections.
Even though the man who accused Louis Walsh wasn't believed, he wasn't abused in the way the victim here was, probably in part because as Louis Walsh is not a rapist he doesn't surround himself with people who behave or think that way but also because he wasn't a woman.

generally the people taking the time to debate issues on a feminism board on Mumsnet are not the enemy and are aspiring to the same end result

Honestly, Emma, if you truly believe that's the case, we must be reading different boards. This very thread says otherwise.

"Mostly though I would say in answer to OP, is that the reason the victim was subjected to such vile abuse in this case is that the family that raises a vile misogynistic scumbag rapist and the people they are friends with are probably all cut from the same cloth. "

Emma, as you say 'in this case', you might just be referring to the rapist in the OP. But you go on with something a bit more general I.e. The family that raises "a vile misogynistic scumbag rapist"

I think that's "othering" rapists too much, TBH. The man who raped my cousin was popular, witty, private school educated and the source of many crushes in his friendship group. Of course, he was also an entitled scum bag, but there was nothing obviously so about him. And given a culture where euphemisms like "took advantage of" often give a rapist's behaviour a veneer of social acceptance, I very much doubt he's the only one.

Selkie - that's where you and I disagree. I really don't understand how people thought Granny or Gone or others I can't recall are somehow the enemy and want different things than you or jaquetta or me for that matter.

Jaquetta: I was indeed referring specifically to the case OP highlighted. I would hope in your cousin's case she wasn't subjected to similar vile abuse, and if she was then I stand by my point that his parents may have raised a charming witty socialite, but also one with a sense of entitlement stronger than a sense of respect for others and he learned that from somewhere. Not all rapists are scumbag chavs (for want of a better description of the people posting on the article OP referred to), but that basic morality is very clearly lacking and as someone who values respect for others I'd be devastated to discover I hadn't picked up on that basic fact if someone I like and respect proved to be a rapist. I also would refrain from commenting let alone abusing the victim on the basis that it would be an appalling thing to do in any case. I absolutely hope that people who would be in any way gratified by forcing themselves sexually onto someone who doesn't want those attentions is 'other' to the people I surround myself and my kids with.

I mightn't have been clear. Rapists can be well hidden under lovely, kind and charming facades. It is a dynamic that has seen many children fall prey to trusted scout leaders and uncles and sports coaches etc. I don't for a second think I have an infallible rapist radar.
However, the normalcy with which people abuse the victim on Facebook etc emerges from a social dynamic that is probably not that shocked by a rapist's lack of respect because lack of respect is the norm.
Most decent people would be horrified and 100% concerned for the victim if they discovered that someone they trusted turned out to be a rapist. The link with the 'otherness' wasn't so much about the rape but in how those surrounding the perpetrators responded.

Well, I think it's too strong to call them "the enemy", but I don't find common cause with a fair amount of posters on this thread. Also, there are a number of posters on the feminist board who are quite clearly anti-feminist, and again, while I wouldn't call them "the enemy", I don't find it productive to engage with them, I don't find their views persuasive, they don't bring robust evidence for their claims, and their beliefs are antithetical to mine.

I'll debate with people who come here in good faith, happily, and there are many posters here I've learnt from by disagreeing with them. However, when people come here to goad, or trot out the same tired old arguments that are always used to shut women down, my response is to dig my toes in and not give an inch, because it's that death by a thousand cuts that stops feminism moving forward. I don't much care if people, men or women, do or don't approve of my feminism. To be honest, if my feminism sits too easily with men, chances are I'm doing it wrong. It SHOULD be uncomfortable reading. It SHOULD make people think and challenge their thinking. It took me a long time to get this comfortable with my feminism, I spent far too long diluting it to make it more palatable, and I won't do it any more.

Emma

Rape culture is very prevalent though; IMO, rapists are at the end of a spectrum of behaviour.

There are plenty who wouldn't abuse Ched Evans's victim on social media but who think she was partly or wholly responsible for what happened to her and which don't judge the behaviour of the men involved as reprehensible, even if they don't believe it was criminal.

See here for societal attitudes:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409210/Drunk-or-flirty-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.html

My cousin told one or two close female friends/relatives her age, and men that she was in serious relationships with. So no one accused her of lying, because almost no one knew.

Emma, sorry for multiple posts to you, but you almost certainly do know a rapist - I will look up the stats but I think it's estimated more than 1 in 100 men is a rapist. Between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes and the majority have experienced street harassment or similar at some point.

Additionally, a large number of men watch internet porn, in which they have no way of knowing which women have been coerced to be there.

Amongst my running group (hobby changed) is a couple who I'm friendly with as our kids are friends. The women from the group go on occasional nights out and the things she says about him and the way he is if, say, plans for a "sexy weekend" fall through due to kid being ill etc, I wouldn't be surprised if he has coerced her into sex at times. Neither he nor she would view that as the behaviour of a rapist, because of rape culture; in the scheme of history, marital rape has been illegal for an eye blink.

OP here

Sorry not been back to respond as I've been away all weekend, but wow plenty to come back to.

You wouldn't know if for example your brother had been falsely accused?

I have 2 brothers. I love them dearly and believe them to be very good men. However, I have no idea if they are capable of rape or not. The same way they don't know if I'm capable of murder. It's unlikely, but no impossible. I wouldn't think "he must be innocent because he's my brother".

If they were accused of rape and the woman went on to be convicted of making a false allegation, I'd be heartbroken for my brothers. However I would will still not believe that potential rapists should be granted anonymity or that victims should be named, because I know my brother's case would be a drop in the ocean in the issue of rape in the UK.

The OP is a good case in point. The OP is not remotely interested in what any innocent man might go through when falsely accused of rape. Yet we expect that same man to be intensely concerned about women.

my OP was asking why people jump to the defence of rapists when they don't do the same for any other criminal. Do I have to add a disclaimer to say I care about people falsely accused?? Besides As Toads mentioned, I am a feminist, my concern is for the 85,000 women a year who are raped or sexually assualted as opposed to the fraction of men who are falsely accused. These are facts. I don't have to care about every problem in the world. This is a feminist board, which is why I posted here.

As for your last sentence, should men only be concerned for women when we're nice to them? Is men's concern something we have to earn?

It's interesting that my point about the 'I believe you' campaign was ignored earlier. It's a strong point. We don't have that for any other crime

no, it wasn't a strong point.

We do have it for other crimes, such as child abuse, however there's a focus on 'I believe you' for rape because rape is notoriously high and the conviction rates are low - only 50% of women report their rapes to the police, and research shows that many are greatly put off due to the element of not being believed. The second someone casts a tiny shadow of doubt over their situation, women run for the hills. Reporting rape and going through a court case is hardly a walk in the park for a woman, why would you want to make it any harder?

I'll look through other responses, I'm a bit behind.

The bottom line I feel is this - as toads mentioned, there is no proof to suggest being falsely accused of rape is more damaging to an individual or prevalent in the UK thank any other crime. As I mentioned in my OP, unless there is a risk of a child being identified, people charged with crimes are publicly named and their names reported in the press. This is for very good reasons. So, if it's decided that alleged rapists should be anonymous until conviction, and no other alleged criminal, that gives potential rapists a special protected status. A status that people who allegedly commit murder, child abuse and assault do not receive. Again Given there's no evidence to suggest false accusation of rape are more damaging than any other crime, can someone tell me exactly WHY this should happen? And if this did happen, you'd have to be very hard of thinking to suggest victims wouldn't be affected.

For me a fals allegation is something that someone has said KNOWING it wasn't the truth.
Someone who is taken to Court for rape and then is said to be 'innocent' isn't someone who has been proved to be innocent. It's someone where no proof strong enough to be 100% sure that he is the perpetrator has been found (eg there might be some proof, he might actually be guilty but we haven't been able to prove it) That's very different and someone who is coming out as 'non guilty' wasn't in my books facing 'false allegations' iyswim.

Also can we please all remember this - acquitted does not mean innocent

By not giving a shiny shit about any other group but themselves (in fact it seems that many feminists' attitude to men is far more antagonistic than just indifferent), feminists are compromising the integrity of their position and undermining their own voice in the conversation.

Do you also expect people fighting the Black Lives Matter movement to be as equally as concerned for white people? Or should you perhaps accept that people are fighting against oppression of their own group?

Germaine Greer has an interesting stance of feminism - she is not an 'equalitist' feminist but instead fights against the oppression of women. This is the stance I also consider for myself

Ive been following this thread & it prompted me to go looking for articles/information on the topic of the 'false rape allegations' narrative dominating any discussion about rape. I've found 2 articles I'm mulling over but thought it would be worth posting them up for others to read.

FWIW I'm in the feminist 'camp' of being concerned about the victims of sexual assault. I'd like to see a discussion about rape and the victims of rape not be derailed by the endless talk of false allegations. But, in the 10 or so years I've been a member of MN, that's yet to happen.

This 1st article argues that we should talk about false rape accusations more not less (but not for the reasons you might think) link

And the 2nd article addresses the incompatibility of the presumption of innocence of the accused -v- the assumption of truth from the accuser link

I think it's also worth mentioning that the multiple quoted article about the mother killing herself after her son committed suicide is being focused on further by the daily mail with an article on a relative now 'demanding' to meet with the accuser. The narrative here being certain that this was a false accusation yet with no charge or conviction to say so. The jump to 'clear & malicious false accusation' with no proof or evidence to back that assumption up is a massive issue whenever these discussions come up, but as the 2nd article I posted addresses, this is part of the rape culture that we live in. Incidentally, while I've not read all the comments, what I did read so far (linked to the 1st article) but they did appear more akin to debate than trolling.

There's also an article on the DM website on the teacher recently cleared of rape having a huge legal bill to deal with now the case is finished, as well as an article on 'teachers' being the 'new victims of sexual assault' by being accused of these crimes.

That's just one snippet of the media focus on 'false' rape allegations & their impact on 1 news outlet (albeit a notorious one at that) - the lack of articles generally on the impact of rape & sexual assault is stark & unsurprising. But to me, it's really striking to see such a huge concerted effort of one news outlet to get across the message/narrative that the 'real victims' of sexual assaults are those allegedly falsely accused.

In the context of this thread & the discussions being had, its worth highlighting that given the number of times the article has been linked to on this thread alone. Was it 6, 7 times? I've lost count.

Fela

Although I do get the point about the majority of rape occurring in situations that aren't traditional 'stranger danger' scenarios, it's also sad that you are unable to acknowledge there is an element of risk to, say, walking home alone from a night out in the middle of the night. Sad because unlikely as it is that someone in this position will be assaulted, there is still a possibility and our daughters should be given that information to use as they wish, rather than possibly becoming a victim of stranger rape because feminism has become too liberated to give the information out.

I have yet to see any mum, no matter how feminist, truly be fine with her DD casting off the shackles of self-preservation altogether. In practice, every mum I've known gives her DD the same advice: stay together, don't walk home alone, get a taxi together, look after each other, don't drink to excess if you're on your own and don't leave the group to go off with a stranger on your own.

Been thinking about the argument that accusations should always be public to encourage other victims to come forward and thereby increase the likelihood of a conviction.

I don't think it's a good enough reason. Victims have the opportunity to come forward if the police issue a description of the person on trial, the area he/she comes from, the time period they are interested in and the locations where they believe crimes could have occurred. There is absolutely nothing to stop a victim from matching their experience up with the description, time period and location, and going to the police. I do not see how having the extra information of a face or a name is going to make it any easier for them to take action.

I have no interest in protecting rapists, but potentially innocent men and women run the risk of having their lives destroyed by the suggestion of rape/assault. The 'I believe you' campaign, while worthwhile, has meant that blame is placed on the accused from the moment the accusation is made. No other crime is judged unquestioningly by our society in this way, which runs the risk of creating a new kind of victim when the wrong person is accused.

Our media industry has grown exponentially and it is now possible to irreversibly attach a global label of 'villain' to a person in moments, irrespective of their guilt or innocence. This also means that employers are obliged to avoid people who have had 'bad publicity' whether they are guilty or not.

These circumstances mean that a potentially innocent life can be destroyed in seconds. The world is aware of this and it does not endear anyone to the feminist cause, which is unhelpful for women.

Punishments should begin when someone is found guilty. Until that point, their vulnerability as a potentially wrongfully accused person should also be factored into the situation and, of course, balanced against the situation for the victim.

OP, you still have not responded to the 'I believe you' campaign point. It was and is a strong point, if you are able to understand it.

You seem to think I am suggesting it is a bad idea when you explain why it was introduced and ask why I would wish to make things harder for victims. I was not suggesting the campaign was a bad idea. I was highlighting a consequence of the campaign in how society responds to an accusation.

The goal of the I believe you campaign is to put more power into the hands of victims, rather than leave them at the mercy of cynics. Fine. However, you should acknowledge that (along with child abuse), this power may have more than one consequence; while it's easier for victims to come forward than it used to be, it means that any process of evaluation by society has become bad form.

the way the world is now, women have to be more careful. It is not right but there are things I just won't do to out myself in a vulnerable situation - as a woman I shouldn't have to do this, but I do

See this is one of the many reasons I'm a feminist. Because whenever men as a class do something wrong, it's women who have to correct their own behaviour before people call men on their behaviour. If a man does something wrong, it's the nearest woman's fault. This thread has done a great job in reinforcing why I feel feminism is so important

The bottom line I feel is this - as toads mentioned, there is no proof to suggest being falsely accused of rape is more damaging to an individual or prevalent in the UK thank any other crime.

Very strange bottom line when all toad has done is request proof, not provide proof that it doesn't exist or claim that it doesn't exist.

Threads like these are usually crawling with academics - wonder where they are.

Do you also expect people fighting the Black Lives Matter movement to be as equally as concerned for white people?

Interesting point. Yes I do, if by concern you mean relating to 'white lives' in the manner in a way that reflects the treatment they are demanding for black people. The shooting of police officers at a hitherto peaceful protest is a great illustration of how pointless it is to protest against something by modelling the very behaviour you are protesting against.

in a manner

"stay together, don't walk home alone, get a taxi together, look after each other, don't drink to excess if you're on your own and don't leave the group to go off with a stranger on your own."

That's advice I will be giving to both my daughter and my son. I know men who have been assaulted and mugged whilst on their own late at night.

I am only just getting through the thread and have just read Toads post. Toad I am so sorry that happened to you, thank you for your bravery in sharing your story im truly lost for words

On the note of your story, Emma said:

What Toads experienced is so very sad, and the man who raped her wasn't convicted, but there is no suggestion that anyone here disbelieves her and neither did her family.

I think, going back to the point in my OP - and I really don't want to upset Toads so apologies in advance - if Toads had reported it a great deal of people IRL and on MN (because we're fairly reasonable supportive folks) who support her. However (and this is the part where I extend my apologies, but feel it needs to be said to make my point) if her case went public, there'd be people on the DM website and on social media asking why she was in a room alone with him, she must have led him on, how could she not know etc. Some people would say they knew him and he was a great guy who'd never do that. Obviously that's not what I think for a moment, but the reality is that is what would happen. It's not necessarily the judicial system I have my gripe with - it's the perception in society of rape and rape victims, and the general attitude of many people who now have social media as a platform to air their ignorance.

This puts people off reporting. It needs to change, people need to stop making excuses for rapists and think of the bigger picture.

There have been several studies recently where up to 1/3 of male college students have responded to studies and said that yes, they would rape if they thought they could get away with it.

here

That's 1/3 who admit it!

I don't think that saying around half of men have possibly engaged in unwanted sexual activity (not necessarily full penetration) is such a wild supposition. If 1/3 will admit that they think rape is part of how to have sex, then there are probably a significant number who also think that it's fine to grope/snog/fondle/ a woman without even asking. Or who think that their 'persuasion' is actually just a normal part of sex and wouldn't even think of it as that. Or who think that holding woman's wrists and rubbing themselves against her saying 'you know you want it' is just foreplay.

(And now let's see if anyone rushes in to pick this apart, because that would be an act of rape apology.)

The 'I believe you' campaign, while worthwhile, has meant that blame is placed on the accused from the moment the accusation is made

Of course it is! If I'm with someone, and I come out with a black eye, and I say 'it was him, he punched me' then I'm believed.

If he also says 'yes, I punched her' then I'm definitely believed.

In rape, if I say 'he raped me' and he says 'I had sex with her' I'm not believed - he is.

Rape's really handy like that. A lot of the time you have a human being to ask, someone who was there when the crime was committed, who can tell you if the sex was consensual or not, because she was the one who had a penis inserted in her, and she can be pretty sure how she felt about that.

For some reason though, society has decided that women are less likely to be telling the truth than rapists.

Been thinking about the argument that accusations should always be public to encourage other victims to come forward and thereby increase the likelihood of a conviction.

I don't think it's a good enough reason.

Can I ask gone if you think descriptions/anonymity should be for all crimes or just rapes? Do you understand why accused are named in criminal trials?

I do not see how having the extra information of a face or a name is going to make it any easier for them to take action.

Are you actually serious? So you expect people to match "6ft tall blonde man with a mole on his cheek" to a person who may have raped them 10 years ago?

his also means that employers are obliged to avoid people who have had 'bad publicity' whether they are guilty or not.

Did I miss something? There's an employment law to say you can't employ someone acquitted of a crime?