Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

[PinkyofPie]

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them

I've been both raped and sexually assaulted.

On neither of these occasions did I put myself in a vulnerable position. They both happened in situations and places where I should have been safe and with people I should have been safe with.

When I was sexually assaulted I was at work and it was my coworker who sexually assaulted me. Obviously as I was at work I hadn't been drinking and was wearing my work uniform.

I wasn't flirting or coming on to him and in fact was trying to avoid him because he had been making sexual advances on me which I had declined. I made it clear that I wasn't interested. I wasn't acting in a way that may be considered "questionable" (whatever the fuck that means). I just wanted to do my job and go home.

I was still repeatedly sexually assaulted by him throughout the day as I was just trying to do my job. I kept trying to avoid him but he would somehow find a way to get me alone (which wasn't difficult as my work place was big and there we were short staffed that day) and sexually assault me again.

Would anyone like to suggest how I could have avoided that? Not have a job? Work only in female workplaces and never have male coworkers?

Felascloak Sat 30-Jul-16 22:43:26
kind I am surprised they got acquitted
No, they have not been acquitted yet because the jury could not decide on the verdict. So there will have to be another trial. But this must mean some of the jury thought they should be acquitted.

Unless you physically bar all men ever from your home and never leave it again then no, you're not being 'sensible'.

You're just buying into rape myths because 'sensible girls' don't get raped.

Except they do. All the time.

That is horrible ToadsJustFell

In an ideal world this wouldn't happen and no one would feel the need to avoid certain situations. I realise they can't always be avoided such as work etc, all I'm saying is where possible this is what I do. I'm not saying you should, but I do.

I will add that in my teens and early 20s before kids I didn't give it a second thought and would happily wonder around drunk at 4am on my own. I don't know if that's my
Location, age or the world in general that has changed things.

Out and about I have been scarily flashed at in the past.
First as a child of seven ( I had a lot of freedom was was out a lot)
Then in a Victorian, city public lavatory at night, down some stairs - he was waiting on the stairs as I came out of the cubicle, and I had to push past him to get out and no one else was there. This was very frightening.
In Italy at mid-day sitting alone near a square but a bit off down a smaller road.

None reported.

So I am wary outside too.

The man who raped me was a family friend. I'll call him John.

I didn't know John that well but my parents did. Tbh I didn't really like him that much, I just got a really bad vibe from him and he creeped me out but I couldn't put my finger on why. However my parents seemed to like him so I just cast that aside and mostly just avoided him.

One day we were helping my auntie move into her new place. I was upstairs in the bedroom with my dad and John. My aunt and my sister were downstairs.

My dad told us he had forgotten something and that he'd go downstairs to get it which meant I would be alone with John for a bit.

I didn't want to be alone with him. Like I said, he creeped me out. Alarm bells were going off and something was telling me that I shouldn't be alone with him.

But I didn't want to tell my dad that and certainly not with John right there.

So I told myself I was being silly and that I should stay. Once my dad had left John then turned on me, pushed me onto the bed and raped me right there in the bedroom.

I could hear my family downstairs laughing whilst he raped me but I couldn't call out for help because he had his hand over my mouth. He had me pinned down and I tried to fight him off but I couldn't budge him. He was just too strong.

The only thing I could do was lie back and wait for it to be over.

I guess I could have avoided that situation because I found him creepy and my instinct was telling me to get out of there.

But the situation itself wasn't vulnerable. My family was downstairs and I could hear them.

Later on that day my sister even made a joke about the fact John looked hot and bothered when he came downstairs and asked what we had been up to. Obviously she didn't know...it was a joke and everyone laughed, including John .

And that's actually the first time I've ever told anyone the whole story about what happened.

The point is is that it shouldn't have been a dangerous situation.

It was broad daylight in my auntie's house and I was with people I knew including family.

I was still raped.

Toads I'm so sorry that happened to you.

I did tell my family a few weeks later btw. They tried to get me to report it but I didn't want to. They are no longer in contact with John.

Toads that is truly awful and I'm sorry you went through that.

I control what situations I can because there are so many that I can't, even as an adult. Im guessing you weren't that old at the time, it was a situation that wasn't in your control.

I was 20 NewStart.

I was helping out because I wasn't doing anything else that day and I wanted to help.

I honestly can't imagine how awful that was. Can I please just say again that under no circumstances does anyone ask to be raped, whatever the situation.

My Aunt was raped back in the early 70s resulting in my cousin. I don't know if I could do that.

Toads

Grannie said: ToadsJustFellFromTheSky, I'm not saying anyone made false accusations but I do think it is unfair when people say he was probably guilty because most men accused of rape are. We don't know and never will.

And yet we needed a 'we believe you' campaign to have women believed when they say they are raped, because most people, and most courts, and clearly from above most juries think that women are lying when they say they didn't consent to have sex with someone.

Actually, of course, it's worse than that. We don't care in court whether the woman thinks she gave consent, only whether the man thinks he had it. It's unbelievable when you put it like that.

Oh, Toads

Thank you for sharing your experiences, and thank you for being so brave on this thread.

This thread has given me quite a lot of insight into the motivated reasoning that maintains rape myths. I'm confident that with time it can change - I have to keep looking back forty years, where the situation was much worse, and then I try to imagine forty years in the future where women don't have to fight this hard any more to be believed.

I'll say again Selkie that there's a big difference between getting a conviction and being believed. What Toads experienced is so very sad, and the man who raped her wasn't convicted, but there is no suggestion that anyone here disbelieves her and neither did her family. Even the 'system' can believe you (police, CPS, lawyer etc) but none of that even guarantees a prosecution, much less a conviction, because our system also leans heavily towards acquittal in cases where there isn't certainty, and even if a conviction were a more likely outcome (which I think everyone here believes would be a very good thing), the reasons people don't report rapes are more complex than just the question of whether they will be believed or not.

I also find your accusation that people who have contributed to this discussion (presumably those who don't agree with everything you said?) are guilty of "the motivated reasoning that maintains rape myths." I don't see that at all - I don't see anybody here who isn't full of hope that things will continue to improve for rape victims, but I also don't see any way to achieve that without changing the way we prosecute rapes, and as to that I just don't have any answers about how it could be done differently unless you are proposing that rapists be convicted simply on the say-so of a victim which I don't think anyone here has suggested, even you.

I think there has been enormous progress regarding discussion around consent in the last couple of years which can only help one 'category' of rape where one party didn't consent and the other was genuinely oblivious to that fact. It doesn't help obviously for the scumbags like the vile man who raped Toads who just don't care, but there will be decent guys out there who are more likely to stop and think before having sex with a very drunk woman or perhaps a woman who hasn't actually declared a wish not to continue to sexual activity but may not actually want to. I think that's pretty good leap forward in progress in quite a short timeframe. Is it enough? Of course not. The vast majority of men as well as women want to live in a society where women are free from sexual harassment, assault and rape.

You keep doing it your way, Emma, I'll keep doing it mine.

Toads sorry that happened to you. Thank you for speaking with such clarity and strength throughout this thread.

I considered briefly reporting a rape years ago. A year or two after it happened he admitted to mutual friends to having "been a bastard" to me that night. I was so angry and humiliated that they had talked about it, I did wonder what else was said and whether I now had some useful witnesses . It was a brief pipe dream. I would have had to fight to be believed. He would have had everyone's sympathy.

The only thing that niggled in my head (still does) was that if I'd have had the courage I firmly believe there must have been other girls/women attacked who may have come forward. Anonymity would take that away.

When I was at school I used to walk 30 mins there and back and in winter it wole often be quite dark, particularly if I'd stayed late for an after school club/detention. I got followed on a few occasions, including one that resulted in police coming to my school. I see no way I could have "not put myself in danger" there.

emma how about what chochoc says? *

What page Fela?
It's a long thread. I might have missed a nutter somewhere along the way!

Just above?
Well I agree with both.
Grannie has a very valid point...
People ARE accused falsely. Leave the male-female issue aside. Louis Walsh was accused of sexual assault. It was entirely bogus. I absolutely believe that the numbers of false accusations are minuscule in comparison to the numbers of women who don't get the conviction they deserve, but for better or for worse we have a system that errs on the side of caution when it comes to convictions.
Maybe that should change. Maybe the lesser evil is a slightly higher number of innocent people being convicted to ensure that so many of the guilty ones don't get away with their crimes? I don't know.
At the moment juries are not allowed to convict people unless they have no reasonable doubts. Some cases like the one OP initially discussed are easier because there is evidence, but in a situation where the scenario is much less clear cut - the bedroom of a couple and one claims consent and the other not - I would find it very difficult under the current system and I'd be more minded to believe the victim. Even if on balance of what I heard backed up my belief of the victim can I honestly say there is no doubt? I guess this is the point I was making to Selkie - the lack of convictions is not the same thing as the victim not being believed. For a case to get to court the CPS, police etc have all probably got to know the victim and believed them, but the jury still may not convict.

As to the intent, that's standard across law for all sorts of crimes. And that's why I think the recent work done around awareness of consent is so important.

I'm not sure which bit you were asking me about, but is that what you were asking?

Emma, I can agree with big chunks of what you say in your post of 09.53, but without dragging back through the entire thread, that isn't the impression of your beliefs that I'd formed from your previous posts. I think our views aren't as opposed as we might think. You seem to find what I've posted very provocative, though.

The bit I don't agree with is "Leave the male-female issue aside", because when it comes to talking about rape, I just don't think we can. The male-female issue is at the very heart of it, for me.